Are You Guilty Of This Common Habit That Destroys Relationships? EP 109

[00:00:00] Shanenn Bryant (2): Welcome Dr. Jessica Higgins to Top Self Podcast. Thanks so much for being here.

[00:01:02] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Thank you for having me. I'm excited about our conversation.

[00:01:06] Shanenn Bryant (2): Oh, so am I because we're going to talk about criticism and I, I love this topic especially when we're jealous and insecure, We can really start to nitpick at our partner a bit and kind of throw some blame on our partner for maybe the way that we are feeling. we really focus on them versus us.

So, tell us what criticism does to the relationship.

[00:01:35] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Well, first of all, I just love how you're beginning to just open up this topic because I think they're very related. The focus on the other and even the jealousy, maybe even control. And that I also want to say, criticism is a very common tendency, especially when we look at Western cultures, there's a lot of validation and reinforcement.

Reinforcement with. Received from having critical thinking skills and using reason. So, where this gets tricky, when we get into the domain of intimacy and connection, it's often a protective strategy, similar likely to being jealous. It's this attempt to control the outside to get a need matter to feel more reassured or secure on the inside. 

And so, you know, we look at It's very human to point to the thing that hurts, right? And that's the effort to want to get resolution, to get attention around something and get an issue resolved. Where that gets tricky, again, when we look at intimacy is most people aren't super skilled, myself included, like this takes some, ability to build skill to get in touch with the deeper primary emotions that aren't always conscious or visible.

And so, what we end up doing is we're pointing the finger at our partner, and that is problematic for many reasons. And so, to answer your question, where this gets particularly tricky in relationship. don't sign up to be receiving unsolicited feedback if we're in a job or we're in a program where we're asking to be evaluated. We're welcoming, they're soliciting. And so, in intimacy, we want to feel a sense of connection, safe haven. 

We care about our partner's thinking. But we're not necessarily saying, can you evaluate me? Can you tell me about my shortcomings? Unless we're soliciting feedback. So that's a big difference. And the other big problem with it. Yeah. I want to comment.

[00:03:42] Shanenn Bryant (2): I so want to comment because I'm like, oh that's I have never thought about it that way of like I didn't Sign up, for you to tell me all the things that are wrong with me, and vice versa. But you don't think about it, you know? I was, when, when I was preparing for this episode, I was like, ooh, hmm.

I need to, uh, to really get in check. with some of my criticism and it does happen really easily it was just this morning pointing out how my husband for like the third time this week forgot to shut the garage door when he left. And it's just that, you know, you don't think about it. It was like, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke, poke.

Or let me tell you what you're doing wrong. Let me tell you what you're doing wrong.

[00:04:31] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Exactly. And we have needs and relationship and we want to work together. So, I don't want to get that confused that we don't ever raise our hand. It's just how we're raising our hand. Because the second problem with unsolicited corrective feedback that often is through the form of criticism is it doesn't help our significant other know what we're needing, have a deeper understanding of what's happening for us.

It's almost like we're sending messages likely they're going to get distracted by because it's about them. They're going to disagree likely with the evaluation or the critique and they're going to want to get defensive. And so, they're busy defending the characterization when really the whole point is, hey, I have a feeling about something or I'm having something that's happening for me.

So similarly, domestically, my husband does this way less, but he used to do this very, excuse me, odd thing where he would leave his shoes. In the middle of the door walkway. And I just was like, I don't know. He's such a conscientious, very thoughtful person. And he's not, he's not a small person. He's got like size 13 feet.

So, it's like, if I'm, I wasn't, if I wasn't paying attention, I'd easily trip over them. So, there is feedback that of course that I might want to offer him, but if he's not asking for me to give him feedback around how he's operating, the bigger point is, hey, I want to feel safe when I walk in. If I have my hands or arms full with groceries and I don't see it, I could easily trip and fall. And or. I don't feel like you're sharing space, like I don't feel considered in our shared space, right? Like I want to feel like you're thinking about my ability to walk freely through the doorway. Simple example, and I have many, but it's just, I have a need.

[00:06:25] Shanenn Bryant (2): Well, I like how you put that because that was going to be my question when does it get to the point where you're like, okay, but like, I don't want to criticize, but I also don't want you to keep leaving the garage door open so that if I'm still sleeping, somebody can just come in the house, you know?

So, I like that you pointed out because there's a deeper reason. We're not just like, Ooh, I just want to tell you all the things that I don't like. Right?

[00:06:53] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Right. I don't know if you can feel this, but I can feel the difference when I have. Strong feelings about something, like there's a little bit of a rattle for me versus, oh, I have a front row seat to you and I'm observing something.

I'm not sure if you are interested or want my perspective, but I'm noticing you and I have thoughts about it. Right. I can feel the difference of like, oh, I'm observing and I'm noticing, and I will, you know, this is where we're not saying we're not saying solicited or even asked, like, I guess, soliciting is when that, you know, my partner and he does do this.

My husband will ask me which or what are your thoughts or what are you thinking? Of course, that gives me the ability to enter into his space and comment and, um, If I offer and I say, hey, I have some thoughts, or I've been noticing. I'm not sure if you're wanting input that that's also fair game because we're getting permission.

We're asking before just entering into that field. So, it's not to say we don't have influence. We're not going to have perspective, but it's this real regard. For the other person, but also, we get highly confused. I think to your point, when we have feelings about something and we approach our partner, we're protesting in a way, but then it's almost like its smoke signals.

They're not really recognizing, oh, and able to decode. You have some feelings about this. It feels like They're on the defense or on, right. You know, feeling somewhat of an attack and having to respond to that.

[00:08:36] Shanenn Bryant (2): Yeah. Because the way, if we're just telling them, and the way, and using myself as an example of saying like, you left the garage door open again, well, that just sounds like, you know, to your point, that sounds just like I'm nagging, I'm nitpicking. Mm And how is he supposed to know that I'm saying something because I, I am fearful that something will happen.

And, you know, sometimes we think, well, of course that's why. Like, of course that's why I would say something. But it doesn't always translate with your partner because in their mind they're not thinking the same way. So, we have to really, it sounds like you're saying, let's just say what it is. Right, 

[00:09:22] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): because to your point, even for partners that have been together for a very long time, it's still not always visible. It's so surprising to me how partners, spouses, may not be able to access those underlying parts. And oftentimes in, in their defense, we don't, the person that's, that's feeling, it doesn't even know they're not even conscious.

Shanenn Bryant (2): So how is it visible to the other? Is there a way that we can test ourselves to see if we're being critical or criticizing often? do we just have to really get more self-aware?

It's a great, it's a great question. So, what I have found, I have several articles and I just somehow this sparked something in people, and I got a lot of input. So, I kind of created more curriculum for people to work with. Typically, people who have lived, let's say maybe late 20s, early 30s and onward. likely have gotten feedback from their partner or some friends or, you know, they've likely gotten some input from people just recognizing that critical tendency. 

So, one of the things that people typically will find is when they start recognizing this is something they utilize, that Let's say they, in their industry, they're a scientist or they're a risk assessor, or they're an attorney, or they're some role that they have that this critical thinking is highly valued.

Even executives, like they're making calls or doctors, like they're making calls all day and having to make quick decisions and be assessing situations that need attention, right? So, they're using that critical thinking skill set. And when they come into a relationship again, they don't always think, oh, I have to switch gears.

I have to almost put a different hat on. And so, when one is trying to contemplate, oh, is this a behavior that I utilize? Likely they're going to have gotten feedback about it. They've likely grown up in an environment where this was modeled or it was something that, um, happened. I find a lot of times people are a little bit more type A and maybe they grew up in a family of origin where ambition or being successful or being very achievement oriented, that that is something that having that critical eye, like the inner critic. That's another indicator is someone who has a big inner critic, right? Cause they're monitoring 

 Well, I was just going to say it makes sense for someone also who is insecure, they're jealous in their relationship and because they're always monitoring. I mean, they're monitoring for everything. And so, my guess is that probably gets heightened even the criticism in that, because now not only are they bringing up when they think their partner has done something, but because they are monitoring everything, it probably then.

[00:12:25] Shanenn Bryant (2): Starts to roll into, like, how you're loading the dishwasher and unloading the groceries and the garage door and the shoes and laundry and all the all those things. Yeah. 

[00:12:39] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Either it becomes a little bit of a slippery slope or people double down on this, because again, it's been their best strategy. If we look at those early years, oftentimes people have gotten the experience, the lived experience that the emotional space or their emotional world, those more vulnerable feelings were not responded to, or it wasn't welcome, or just, it wasn't a part of the common way of relating.

So, they learned to push that away, push it down or really heavily focused on the intellect and the intellect again serves a purpose is good in many ways. But when we look at relationship and vulnerability, intimacy and connection, we need to access the emotional space because that's typically what's alive. So as far as the slippery slope. This can be habitual. 

We almost get a little bit of a dopamine hit from engaging in this. It can feel competitive. It can feel very a part of like, it almost can feel hard to just switch gears or people sometimes are like, I'm not going to criticize anymore, but they don't have another way to get their needs met or address an issue. It's so almost compulsive. So, I do think it can be very difficult to just switch out of. And then furthermore, you asked earlier about just how problematic it can be. And many people have heard of the Gottman’s. They've done amazing research for relationship. And John Gottman, I think, has written Has research about criticism being a predictor of divorce, right?

He talks about four horsemen and criticism is one of them. And also, when we're in that mindset of tracking for the negative, and let me just say, I know you're probably aware, just as humans, we are in this mindset of finding the wrong words. more negative bias because it's a survival tactic that we're mitigating.

We're trying to anticipate problems in service of mitigating them, so we have a better chance of having survival or things going well. But what that then does is we will Neglect or under credit, ignore strengths. We're focusing on the weaknesses or the difficulties. So, it's like this negative sentiment override and that can be very damaging to the bond of the couple.

[00:15:05] Shanenn Bryant (2): Yeah, I mean because I can feel it too when I do it and I will say I definitely do it more than my Husband does it. I think now if he does it, he's probably just trying to match me, you know, like, okay. Well, how about this?

[00:15:18] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:15:19] Shanenn Bryant (2): for you to chew on for a little bit, but I notice it and it is that thing of like, uh, it’s like even almost after you've done it, but then it really kind of doesn't stop you from doing it again.

And I can see why they're saying that that's a pretty good indicator or predictor of divorce because, we all want to be like, oh, I, they think I'm the best and they love everything about me. And even though we know rationally, that's not true, but. Then when you start to hear how much somebody doesn't like the things that you do or the way that you do things, I'm sure then that becomes like, oh, I just want to feel good with somebody versus feeling bad about myself all the time.

Yeah. 

[00:16:04] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): To add to what you're saying, to feel seen, to feel appreciated, to feel known and respected, right? Depending on the person. I can't tell you how many times in the couple sessions, particularly in heterosexual relationships, the guy, and not to genderize it, but it's like, I just want to feel good in your eyes.

I want to feel like I'm seen favorably. Like there's a lot of desire to serve, to be helpful and to make a difference. And I think this goes both ways, regardless of gender. Sometimes it has a little bit of a different nuance for people, whether or not it's to feel emotionally seen or whether or not it's to feel really valued. I don't think it has to be specific to gender, but to your point, this is critical. Like our person values us, sees us and holds us with high regard. And like, that's regardless of the difficulty or whatever emotions are at play. Like there's that foundation, that, that glue.

[00:17:10] Shanenn Bryant (2): I know you're trying to tiptoe around it, but I think probably women are more nit-picky I mean, I'm just guessing. I don't know. I, you know, we may not know if there's stats on that, but I kind of would guess that maybe women are more, they criticize more. I don't know.

[00:17:30] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): There could be a propensity for that for a couple of reasons. I think women stereotypically tend to be a little bit more articulate and use language to express. I think the research shows men and women have the same brain capacity and structure for empathy and emotional capacity. The language is where they see the big difference in that we look at just evolutionarily, like parents typically talk, mothers talk to their daughters more about emotions than maybe they would with their sons, or just even how bonding occurs in peer groups early on.

There's a lot of sports being played or activities. And this is just, again, grossly stereotyped. being, but women stereotypically will, or girls will talk to each other and talk about feelings. There's just a lot more playing time that if perhaps a woman might have. And so there could be a little bit more verbalizing that a woman would do, but actually I find a fair amount of men who are in this more executive role, and they are in a position of leadership and they are in the position of evaluating others and giving feedback or telling them where they need to grow. 

And then they bring that same skill set to their relationship. And when I have so many women and relationship that are like, he's telling me what to do, he's correcting, he's, um, coaching me. He's like, and that's not what they want either. 

[00:18:59] Shanenn Bryant (2): Yeah, maybe I'm just like, maybe I'm just taking my own cause I know I criticize more, but that, that's a really good point because yes, the men in that role, you know, it's really hard to switch gears. It's hard to switch gears for anyone from work to then your home life. And certainly, if they're used to doing that all day, it's like, uh, I haven't turned that off, so I'm still doing it at home.

[00:19:21] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Yeah. And if there's a significant age difference, sometimes that will contribute to what can feel hierarchical and one has a

little bit more power as the breadwinner, or, you know, there's certain reasons why one might have more of a voice, but regardless of the dynamics, this typically, because again, when I work with, let's say a man who is expressing in this way, Okay. Their partner, their spouse is turning away. They're like, no, thank you. Or putting up walls or shutting down. Like they're not responding. And typically, there's a more vulnerable need or primary emotion that they're wanting their partner to respond to or their spouse to respond to. And that's not a great strategy to get your partner to respond.

It's not setting up that interaction for that responsiveness being more attuned, it's pushing the person away, unfortunately. 

[00:20:17] Shanenn Bryant (2): So just like most things, we really have to just be thoughtful in the way that we're delivering the message and, instead of it coming out as criticism, again, putting it back to self and saying, Hey, I feel, that my safety is, compromised when you leave the garage door open, or my safety is compromised when your size 13 shoes are in the way.

[00:20:43] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Yeah. Well, a real simple thing that I typically like to reference as a tool is if I can turn any complaint or criticism or even blame into a request or a reveal that that's going to set up the conversation so that my husband can see why I'm raising my hand, what I'm bringing to him. 

Because if it's concealed with criticism or complaint, again, he's going to be paying attention likely unless he's doing the more advanced move, the ninja move, which is to, oh, you have some issue here. It's not about me. Tell me more. What is it? What? Tell me more about this. What, what is this? If I were to move my shoes, what would that allow you to feel? Or, you know, and it's not easy to do on the receiving end. So, to your point, to be more aware, if we notice this as a habit, just. Trying to stop it doesn't give us an avenue to get that need met.

So, there's a real good reason why we're complaining or raising our hand or pointing the finger in the first place.

But if we just shut that down, it's not going to go anywhere. Likely it'll just build, build, build. And then maybe we'll have more resentment or more frustration and it's going to come out. sideways anyway. So, if we can do a little bit of preparation work,

which is okay. So, let's, let's use an example. So, we have the garage, we have the shoes. Here's another one. When my husband's classic and, and the Gottman’s often talk about in relationship, every partnership in the dynamic, they typically have like seven to eight irreconcilable differences.

This is the spender, the saver, the one that's on time, the one that's more, tardy or the planner or the spontaneous one. So, one of the differences between my husband and I is I get excited. I have lots of ideas and I, my list is always way too long of all the things I want to get done. I'm a little bit more and optimistic where for him, He's much more grounded.

He's much more able to do less and he prioritizes having space and having time that isn't like that pacing, that kind of piece. He really prioritizes that. So, if we're Just sitting down or thinking about something we want to do. Let's say we want to take a trip together. 

I can recall about a year ago, we were in Asheville, North Carolina, and we were wanting to go to the coast, the beach, the ocean. And I was thinking about how to, you know, some ideas about when it could happen and other things that we could do. And I could feel him like, like the brakes, like his heels digging in. And he was like kind of naysaying on, on surface level, it looked like naysaying. And I'm like, this is positive. Like, I couldn't understand.

I was like, what, why is there static here? Like I just couldn't get it. And so doing what I do, I could at least notice what was happening. And I had the question around, oh, something's happening for him. And if I could understand, and I got curious. So, I was asking, he wasn't necessarily being critical of me, but he was a little bit in that, like, no, no, no.

And So I guess I kind of did the thing of like what's hard to do on the receiving end. It was easier to do because he wasn't criticizing me. It was more of my ideas, which can feel sometimes a little personal, but close territory. And I was able to ask the question around like, oh, just knowing we've had this, we've been around the block enough with this.

I was like, oh, is this like feel too much? Is it stressful? And we were in a very stressful time when we still currently are, but. He was able to say yes, like that just feels like a lot. And then I was like, oh, like I am in service of that. Like there is no part of me that wants to overwhelm him. I want us to be together. So, when the need or the request or the reveal is a little bit more visible in relationship, most of the time. We want to show up for them. Like we want to help,

but that's not always accessible when we're leading with the criticism or complaints. And I can give you another one. That's me being critical for sure.

And it's a little bit deeper, but when we can do a little preparation or notice when it's getting off track, try to reset, try to access. What is my need? I mean, I have a like whole process around how to get in touch with these deeper layers. Sometimes myself included. Even A master's, a PhD in psychology, an undergrad in psych.

And I've been doing this forever. Sometimes if I'm super triggered and I put pen to paper to just kind of vent, it's surely going to be all my complaints about him to start like, and then another thing, and this happened and that happened.

[00:25:40] Shanenn Bryant (2): Let me get through all of this part first, right?

[00:25:44] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): yeah. And then I start to get into the, like, oh, like I can feel qualitatively that like, this is the juice.

This is the heart of it. This is the vulnerable part that. These other layers, criticism is protecting.

[00:25:59] Shanenn Bryant (2): Yeah. So good. Yeah. Cause it takes a bit to really get to, what's at the root of it, you know, 

[00:26:07] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Mm-Hmm. 

[00:26:07] Shanenn Bryant (2): like, I always say our first thought is usually wrong, if, if you're thinking, oh, I'm upset about this, the first thing, yeah, I'm upset because of this. It's usually not.

And so that's what you're saying. Like, get it all kind of out there if you can to figure out what that need is, what you really need so that you can communicate that.

[00:26:28] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Yeah. And just a self-inquiry, like you're saying, just having a little bit more awareness. And sometimes it does require slowing down. It does require maybe getting support or journaling or. Walking or taking a run or just some self-reflection around. Okay. So, my impulse is to want to talk about my, my, my significant person. And if I were, this is another question I have referenced already, but if I were to get. The thing that I'm wanting, what would that allow me to feel? And that can be a, another question to get at another indicator around what is happening on the inside. And once we can make a little bit more contact with that, then we're in a better position to be more revealing of almost, I'm going to show you my belly to this significant other.

And typically, we're terrified to do this. It's a scary thing. I can't tell you how many times like. I'll feel an inkling of it. And I'm like, oh, this is a very thing I don't want to say. This is a thing I'm either ashamed of or feel is unlovable or just is like

not the fun part. And I'm like, but I've done it enough that I'm committed to the process that I know while it's scary and difficult and hard. It's the very thing that allows him to see me. Cause what happens, we're like tuning forks in relationship. We have these neuroceptors. It's called neuroception when we're recognizing the facial expressions, the nonverbal, the tone of voice, we're picking up the nervous system of the other. 

So, we're already aware very, very quickly in nanoseconds, oh, something, my partner's feeling something, but we don't know what it is. And so, we make up all these stories, we interpret where you perceive and often, we're incorrect. And then a lot of misunderstanding happens and a lot of, cause people's protective parts start showing up and then that's where the protection, the protective parts usually hurt the other. And then we're like not even talking about the thing that needs attention.

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:28:34] Shanenn Bryant (2): Right. You get completely off track because now you're focused on like, why is, why is that person being quiet? It really does throw us out of balance a lot. And I hear this a lot too, of, you know, especially if you're, if you're already worried about the relationship in some way, and then that persons like quieter than they normally are, or, just not talking as much and we almost instantly go like, oh, what does that mean? About like, are they upset with me? Are they mad at me? Are they not interested in me? And we automatically go there and you're right. We can pick it up very quickly. Just their facial expressions and just like, oh, they did a little bit, something different than they normally do and we run with it. Yeah.

[00:29:27] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Well, and this is typically highly informed by past experiences, whether or not it's past relationships or family learning

attachment styles, right? So, I, in my early years have known loss and abandonment. My biological father died when I was like six months old. Like there's just various things that have happened that I have known loss and abandonment. Feelings of abandonment around. And so fast forward, when I was dating my husband, to your point, if there's any circumstances that are not as secure, we don't have certainty. I mean, none of us really have ultimate certainty in relationship, but when there's not a real stability in the relationship, then things can feel already wobbly. And then the lens through which we're viewing, if we've had previous experiences legitimately that haven't felt secure, then we're going to be a little bit more on guard for that. So, an example, when my husband and I were Getting serious, but also still uncertain. His style was more, he would have said then, it was a little bit more avoidant.

I mean, luckily, we've been together almost 20 years, and we've really earned a lot of security together and functioning.

But these early stages I'm not joking. There was one time we were in my living room, and we were having a conflict about something and he was like falling asleep. And I'm like, are you kidding me?

I'm like, are you really falling asleep? Like, I, I was like, I'm so I gasped. I don't even know what to say. 

[00:31:06] Shanenn Bryant (2): at sharing with you how upset I am and you're sleeping. Oh 

[00:31:11] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Right. I mean, it had evolved. Like, I think he just was like overwhelmed and like tapped out, but we weren't even like fighting,

fighting, but it was like an, an, and I had enough skill with, this is the tricky thing. So, I had enough skill that I think I was very diplomatic in my language. I actually wasn't being harsh in my criticism, but the energy in it was still focused on him.

Even though my words were very. Like, I don't

think a lot of people would object to my language and maybe even would have given me a script of this is what you could say. However, what was running in me was I was feeling uncertain as to how engaged he was, how in it he was. I don't remember even what the conflict was, but I remember being like, oh, I really like you and I'm not sure if you like me as much or.

Okay. Are you really with me or do you, are you want to work on this or these types 

[00:32:04] Shanenn Bryant (2): you as interested in me as I, am you?

[00:32:08] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Yeah, somewhere in that ballpark.

And, you know, fast forward, I would say, let's say 10 years later, we were in a conflict. And even though I knew we were solid, there was this nervous system part of me that just was feeling again, that rattle of like, I don't know when you're coming back. I don't know where you are.

Um, and we were driving to my best friend's house. It was probably about an hour and a half from where we were. We were in Santa Barbara, California. We were going to Simi Valley or maybe an hour and 15 minutes. Anyway. So, I was like, can you just, I knew enough. And this was the request. I was like, can you just help me Like, reassure me if it's true that you want to work on this, that you will be interested in resolving this.

Cause I just, that part of me didn't feel like I could access that reassurance. And so, he was absolutely like, of course. And it was just like that exchange just helped me fully regulate and like

center and be able to be in a much calmer place. And then just lastly, you know, as I look at those early years, I was able to tell him, not in that moment where he was falling asleep, but like, I'm, I think I get anxious, and I think I'm scared.

I don't know if you're really in this or really are wanting to work through things. And so, I get a little bit more anxious and want to ask questions. To seek you out, but I think underneath I'm just feel vulnerable. And here's what I know about that. And then there's the more reveal. And I will tell you, I have yet to experience him turn away when I show that inside part and that vulnerability. And to your point, it does take a little bit of work to be able to get in touch with that. We mostly don't want to. Make contact with those very intense feelings, and it's the thing that helps bring softening and vulnerability and more connection because it's alive. Anyway, we just think we're masking it, but we're really not usually yeah, 

[00:34:14] Shanenn Bryant (2): Yeah, and usually they can see right through that too, we just talked about that, they can tell just as easy as we can tell, um, differences in them. And I, my husband always, especially when I was really trying to. tame my jealousy and like figure out how to maneuver through it.

And I would think I'm doing a really good job of not showing him that I'm upset. And he's like, what? Like, what, what happened? What? I know. 

 So, it goes both ways. They can tell on us as well.

[00:34:51] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Yeah. I just interviewed, I don't know if you know who Frank Anderson is. He does a lot. He's a trauma expert and has worked a lot with Dick Schwartz and the internal and family systems. He just, um, he, he does a lot in the trauma world. But anyway, it was like in relationship, we often want to farm out the responsibility to our partner. And he's like, you really want to do a U turn and really look back at yourself and really get in touch. 

We're not great again at getting in touch. Getting in touch with those more like intense feelings. And so, it sounds like you're saying you can also recognize if you've shown your husband, like, hey, I'm having a moment or just feeling insecure, that that's very different and qualitatively different than tracking him and trying to get on him for something that he's doing. 

[00:35:36] Shanenn Bryant (2): Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the, the conversations are night and day, um, when, when you can do it differently than, of course, the accusatory. And it makes sense. I think we all know that. It's just sometimes when you're in that moment, you know, like you said, we have to slow down a little bit when we're heated and so we just have to take a second. 

Oh my gosh This was such a good conversation about criticism I know everyone now like we're going to have to really pay attention, and I know everyone's gonna be like, I'm going to do my best So, take Jessica's advice, take her steps, we know we can't just say, I'm not going to do it.

So, there's some things that we have to work through, um, to do it. But it's definitely something now that I'm bringing some awareness to myself about those things and what I'm doing and how I'm saying them. So, thank you so much. It was such good information. I have one last question for you, Jessica, that I'm asking all my guests…

 Was there a time that you felt jealous?

[00:36:38] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Yeah. I'm yes. I think when you

were on, on my podcast, I was sharing about the story of like, in our wedding ceremony, it was like, who's the more jealous one? And I was like, had never thought about that question. I was like, I am. Um, yes. I remember very early on, I was noticing how My boyfriend at the time, now husband, was relating to other women.

And I think I would just be tracking, I don't know that it was like I was doing anything, but I was just a little, again, that uncertainty, fear of abandonment on the inside and just, is this okay? Are we safe? Is he going to take care of us? And, Gratefully, we have established, and he's been very all in and showing up and for, for me and just in the beginning stages, I just wasn't sure.

And so, I definitely was tracking and feeling jealous and protective and scared and insecure on the inside. And, um, I know that's not a real distilled memory. but I can point to times. Yes.

[00:37:48] Shanenn Bryant (2): yeah, because, and I think it can be different for everyone too because it sounds like, okay, once I knew he was all in with me, like once I, once you felt confident that, okay, he is signing up for, like he's serious about this and he wants to make this work for me. Then that dissipated a little bit, and you felt like, okay, I'm now confident in this relationship.

[00:38:13] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): It took iteration. It took lots of working through things and a real learned experience because having had past experience of pain and trauma and loss, I think I needed to not only just feel his commitment, but just to live it where I felt continuously and repetitively that we were operating in a way that we were responding to each other.

So, I think that helped me feel a lot more security. And it's not to say, I think that even still, if we were in a circumstance, oh my gosh, this was a test. I don't know. Do I have a time to tell the story.

[00:38:49] Shanenn Bryant (2): Yeah, of course!

[00:38:51] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Okay. So, my husband and I. I've never told this story. I don't even think I've told friends or maybe I know I told my husband afterwards, but

[00:39:00] Shanenn Bryant (2): It's happening here. Intentional.

[00:39:13] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): but nonetheless, they're usually in natural environments and there's no chlorine. So, it's just like mineral water. It's warm. Beautiful environment. So, we lived in Boulder, Colorado. We would go to different locations. And then in Santa Barbara, there was a few that we would go to. We were up in Ojai, California. Actually, I think with all the flooding and it's not. Operable now, but there was these hot springs and we were in a tub, but sometimes there's different pools that are different temperatures.

And we're in this one particular hot tub, um, soaking area. And it's usually rocks that are making the tub, but we're there and there's this beautiful woman. I mean, she's gorgeous. And she, I believe is naked. And she's like right in front of him. And then she's, there's like this ledge that's overlooking this, um, river, this creek, that's like a cold plunge.

And she like, I don’t; to be super fair to her, I don't think it was sexual. I don't think she was doing anything manipulative. I didn't get, I don't think there was anything. It just was circumstantial. Like she's leaning over to kind of just get some like fresh. And like her. Booty is like, kind of towards him and I'm just like, oh my gosh, if this isn't a test of like, my security, like, and I could feel a little bit and I just remember breathing and I told him about it later, but I just, it was a recognition of like, this is, you know, okay.

So, and I did interview someone on the topic of jealousy, and she serves people in polyamorous relationships. And I focus typically on monogamous relationships and, but she was saying jealousy is a more combined emotion. It's almost excitement. It's almost like protection. There's some fear. There's a, there's a combination.

So sometimes it's like jealousy is not always a bad thing that we're like, I love this person. And someone else, this wasn't the case. Then this woman was not. Attracted to my husband, but let's say I was at a party and someone was chatting, like a beautiful woman was chatting up my husband. I could feel jealous, but I could also feel like he's a great guy and like, he's getting attention, and he's got all these great qualities.

And for someone to be taking interest in him, like I can appreciate that. And that can be, there can be something in there that's valuable, but that was definitely that hot soaking tub. I was just like, Ooh,

[00:41:45] Shanenn Bryant (2): your, your description, like when you were describing the scene, I know my audience well enough, like I can feel their blood pressure rising, like, oh, I would freak out. And, and that is one of those cases where I think a lot of people, you know, would feel maybe some kind of way, a little bit uncomfortable in 

[00:42:06] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:42:08] Shanenn Bryant (2): yeah.

[00:42:09] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): And there's nothing. What am I going to do? Like we're in this, 

[00:42:12] Shanenn Bryant (2): I've got nowhere to go.

[00:42:14] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): And I could have turned to him and tracking, like he had sunglasses on. I could have been like, is he looking at, like, I could have been all trying to get into his space. And I, all I tried to do was just breathe and like really focus on my value, my worth, and if something, you know, I, I don't know, like these are things that are out of our control in some regards of like.

[00:42:34] Shanenn Bryant (2): Yeah.

[00:42:35] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): what are partners thinking where their eyes are gazing, but like, I don't think again, I don't, I don't think it was weird in any which way, but it was like, if anything was a test to my jealousy, like that was definitely one of them. Yeah. 

[00:42:49] Shanenn Bryant (2): You felt it in that moment for sure.

[00:42:52] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Oh my gosh.

[00:42:52] Shanenn Bryant: Oh, Okay, Jessica. I know that people are going to want to seek you out. how can they find you, and if they want to get in touch with you or your resources, how can they do that?

[00:43:05] Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah. So, the main way is www.drjessicahiggins.com. That's my website. And on the homepage, there's actually a shifting criticism into connected communication relationship guide. It's free and it gives people a real scenarios and what a side-by-side comparison of what a critical tendency some of that language would look like.

That's very common. And then also what a more like in the way that we've described, setting up the conversation with a reveal or a request. So, it shows that same scenario, how to reverse that and put it into more of that reveal or request that is setting that. That dialogue or that interaction up for more success so your partner can respond to you and what your need is so that that can give some, um, basically ability to workshop how to this into practice.

[00:44:00] Shanenn Bryant (2): So, I can take kind of like, this is the snarky comment I was going to make, and then it'll be like, no, say this instead. Maybe you should do this instead.

[00:44:10] Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, it gives examples and gives you language and then perhaps you can work the situation to get at that. Yes.

[00:44:16] Shanenn Bryant (2): Oh, awesome. 

[00:44:18] Shanenn Bryant (2): uh, thank you for the wisdom and thank you for sharing your story. I appreciate it. Thanks for being on Top Self.

[00:44:25] Dr. Jessica Higgins (2): Yeah. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.  

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