Facing Your Fear of the Unknown and Unpredictable w/ Dr. Jisunny Fisher Ep 63

[00:00:00] Shanenn Bryant: Well, thanks for joining Top Self Podcast again today. I have a great episode for you. I have with me today Dr. Jisunny Fisher and, she is a psychologist, bestselling author, and happiness coach, which I love the most of all of the things that you've done. So welcome to Top Self.

[00:00:22] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure.

[00:00:26] Shanenn Bryant: I know that you talk about overcoming fear of the unknown, the unpredictable, and for us that are suffering with this extreme jealousy. That is one of the things that's super hard for us, the unknown, the unpredictable 'cause we wanna know all of the details so we can prepare ourselves, which we know even with that preparation, um, doesn't much help our anxiety, but we feel like it does in some way. So, I'd to start off there, talking about, you know, how do we overcome this fear of the unknown and the unpredictable.

[00:01:01] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Yeah, that's a really great place to start, especially when we think about as human beings, Shanenn, we are very, very much driven by either wanting to avoid pain or pursue pleasure. And we are more apt to avoid pain, then we are to pursue pleasure. And so, if what we don't yet know is something that creates a lot of fear then we're going to do whatever we can to avoid that particular pain than we would to pursue or seek things that make us happy or bring us joy and fulfillment. 

[00:01:36] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: When we think about the way that our human brains are wired, we know that we have the reptilian brain, the mammalian brain, and then the human brain.

[00:01:46] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: So, if we can think about our, it's called the Traian brain, but essentially what it is, is evolutionarily speaking, the human brain evolved from having a simple reptilian like brain to having the quote unquote complex interlay of different neuro nerves and neurons that create the particular brain that is within our skulls.

[00:02:09] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: We think we have just one brain, but when we really look into it, we have evolutionarily three different compartments to the brain and I found with each particular compartment to the human brain, we have specific fears. 

[00:02:25] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: When we think about the three core human fears that we can talk about, if this is of interest, this unknown not knowing, puts us in a space where we're not sure if we are in control of what's happening.

[00:02:39] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And if we're not in control of what's happening in our lives, then we are very much in a place where do we survive, do we not? Is a very big question. Whether it's a conscious one or an unconscious one.

[00:02:52] Shanenn Bryant: That makes sense, especially when we talk to other people. We may talk about this jealousy issue that we have or this jealousy concern that we have. A lot of people don't understand it when they're not going through it and a big part of, it's like, well, just, you know, why are you worried about it? Don't worry about it. Nothing's happened yet. There's nothing to be worried about. And it's like, well, okay, you can do that, you know, without knowing the unknown. But for us, it's really hard not knowing. If we're looking at it from the standpoint of these three separate brains, then how do we overcome that fear or get used to the idea of the unknown?

[00:03:33] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Yeah. based on what you just shared, when we are looking at ourselves in the context of a relationship. And the unknown is, oh, is my spouse cheating on me? Are they feeling a certain type of way or doing something that we're not sure and puts us or I, or a sense of identity at risk for, you know, death? I'm gonna call it death, but not the physical death. Um, it really is about that second part of the brain that I mentioned. So, it's not the reptilian brain. The reptilian brain is the part of us that wants to survive. It's the part of you that if you are crossing the street and there is a car coming at you, you're not thinking about what to make for dinner.

[00:04:14] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Or where you're going out on date tomorrow, you are either running forward or running back, or completely frozen, not knowing what to do. That's the reptilian brain, but the part of the brain that is really active when we're thinking about that fear of unknown. Based on the, in my relationship, what's going on?

[00:04:34] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: What is the other person thinking or how are they feeling, or what are they doing that I might not know about? Um, it's the mammalian brain. The mammalian brain within our skulls is a part of our brains that are responsible for things like our emotions, what we're feeling, but also our connections. And if we're going to talk about fear of the unknown within that part of the brain, what we're really talking about Shanenn is the fear of abandonment.

[00:05:03] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: We can call it the fear of the unknown, but ultimately, it's about am I going to be abandoned? And this usually shows up for people as social anxiety issues, maybe a lack of confidence or issues developing intimacy, right? Intimacy issues. Um, but I've found that when we are struggling with this fear of abandonment, what we're talking about essentially is whether it's one major block or multiple smaller blocks towards, um, a freedom of expression of our authenticity. And that happens because we don't know if we will be loved or accepted, or we will be abandoned if we choose to express who we are truly. Which is why it shows up as I'm going to think about the other person first, or I'm going to put their needs first before mine.

[00:05:53] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Or sometimes it shows up as we're actually not even sure of who we are as an identity, as a sense of self because we are so enmeshed in our relationships.

[00:06:03] Shanenn Bryant: Mm mm-Hmm, yeah. I, I know that that is something that we experience a lot is putting the other person first, or certainly When we're feeling jealous, when we're feeling insecure, because all of our focus is on our partner, we aren't turning inward and saying, well, you know, who am I? What do I want? Can I handle this if it does happen?

[00:06:25] Shanenn Bryant: Because all of that attention is going to our partner. So, is there a way to turn that around?

[00:06:36] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Yeah, absolutely. If the reason why we are so focused on our partner has to do with, um. This is only in the context that this is a relationship pattern that you've noticed some of us. Very small percentage of us that have a struggle with this issue isn't, um, a pattern necessarily, but a one-off. If it's a one-off, then this is not particularly what I'm talking about, but if this is a pattern that you have noticed over the years where you do tend to go into relationships where you're not sure of where the relationship stands, or you get ex extremely insecure or anxious or distressed about the relationship.

[00:07:17] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: It happens typically because of, I know a lot of people have heard of the attachment style theory. So, there is a lot of research that points us to the idea that the way that we show up in our relationships happens to come from the way that our relationship with our parents developed. And this is based on, 

[00:07:38] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth, they started doing research fifties into the seventies. But essentially what we saw was that as kids, if we grew up in a situation or with parents who either were so overwhelmed with life, so we, they couldn't give us the attention that we deserved or needed as kids, or maybe we had parents that went back and forth. One day they're extremely loving and coddling the other day they're completely disinterested for whatever reason. 

[00:08:08] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: If we have that particular relationship dynamic with their parents, we develop what's called an anxious style of attachment. That particular style of attachment gets us to feel as an adult, like and we're constantly worried that maybe our partner doesn't love us, or if a relationship ends, then the world is completely over. And we'll see that if this is the type of attachment style we've developed, we feel extremely sensitive to criticism. We feel responsible for other people's happiness. We need approval from others a lot. We have low self-esteem. We feel unworthy of love. 

[00:08:46] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Maybe sometimes we have difficulty trusting people or that extreme sense of the fear of abandonment, like we talked about with the mammalian brain, or I've actually seen in some of my clients being alone is an extremely stressful time for them. So being able to be alone is something that creates a lot of anxiety.

[00:09:06] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: If this is something that resonates for you and the anxiety in relationship comes from, based on your reflection, this particular pattern that developed the best way or the fastest way that I found we can actually help people climb out of that particular way of thinking is to remember that it's always an inside job.

[00:09:30] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: So, if it's something that continues to knock at your door, and it's the same guest, right, the same pattern, it typically means that there's something inside of me that needs to be addressed. It doesn't matter how my particular relationship right now is going, something that needs to be addressed.

[00:09:49] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: If I don't address it, I'm going to continue to repeat that pattern and repeat the same mistakes until I learn from it. And so, the first thing that I do, first and foremost, no matter who I'm working with or who I'm, um, speaking with at that moment. It's always an inside job. So, it's always about knowing my relationship to myself first before I can address my relationship to someone else.

[00:10:16] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And if I can address my relationship to myself first, all it entails is understanding who I believe I am. So that question of “who am I” or “what am I” is an extremely extremely powerful question that a lot of us don't ask ourselves because it's actually really scary to look at, because we're actually unsure of what the answer is that comes back.

[00:10:41] Shanenn Bryant: So, when we start to ask the question, who am I? Because I, I have done the, I've worked on this for quite some time and I a hundred percent believe that the. Both the, the struggle and the solution are within ourselves, right? Looking at

[00:10:57] Shanenn Bryant: ourselves. And I think sometimes people get lost in that of like, well, how do I figure it out though? When we try to answer that question, it's more like, well, what do I like? What do I wanna be? Who, you know, that type of thing. Is that the right line of questioning or are there particular questions maybe that we should ask ourselves?

[00:11:17] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Yes. So, when we think of the sense of self, what we're talking about is who am I in the sense of the ego and the ego isn't necessarily like. What am I proud about? But the ego is just a collection of different stories, a collection of the different experiences that you've had over the course of your life.

[00:11:37] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: So, when we look at who am I, from that lens of the ego, the personality that's developed in this specific human body, we can look at the identity funnel. And the identity funnel essentially is, uh, a layer of six different things that we can begin to understand how we see this world. So, the first thing that we think about when we think about our identity is the role of the environment.

[00:12:03] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Our environment. So, who we're around, what's being told to us, other people's feedback, um, where we live, what we do. That environment very much has an important role in who we think we are. Inside the environment. We also have specific social roles that we play. Am I a sister? Am I a teacher? Am I a daughter?

[00:12:27] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Right? So, we have specific roles that we categorize ourself and compartmentalize ourselves into. And then within that frame, we also have, and we're starting to go inward now, it's the social comparison. The only way we can feel a certain level of quote unquote value about ourselves is when we begin to compare.

[00:12:50] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And it's just a human like inherent trait that we have. It's not necessarily something that's bad or good, but the social comparison piece of it is that we begin to look at ourselves in comparison to other people. So, depending on how you are compare, are you comparing up or are you comparing down again?

[00:13:10] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: There's no bad or wrong or good or right. It's just how are you comparing yourself? Because when you begin to be more conscious and aware of how you're comparing yourself to the people around you, 'cause you're gonna do it, you begin to realize for yourself, and you begin to grow a sense of empowerment as to understanding how your identities actually developing.

[00:13:33] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And then we go in even further, our identity, self-identity. Is very much composed of the different thoughts that we have. Not thoughts like, am I good? Am I good? Am I bad? But thoughts like, what am I interested in? So, for example, for a really long time I couldn't stop. Thinking about tarot, like I became obsessed with reading tarot, and I couldn't put the cards down.

[00:13:56] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Like no matter where I went, what I was doing, I had to be holding my deck of tarot cards. And the thoughts that I was having during that period of my life really did shape. Who I felt I was and how I felt about myself versus maybe in a different time of my life. I was completely obsessed with thinking about getting my PhD, passing my dissertation.

[00:14:21] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And that particular time of my life, I didn't feel very good about myself because I kept, kept coming into different thoughts about, well, what if I don't get my PhD? What does it mean if I don't get approved? What if my, the IRB or my board doesn't like what I'm researching, right? So, like the different types of thoughts that I was having really did shape who I thought I was.

[00:14:44] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And then if we go even further in, the thoughts be before the thoughts we have. Or some people think it's after, but it could be both. There is this sense of I, I feel a certain way about myself. How do I feel about myself? That really shapes who I believe I am. If I think about between 2018 and 2021, the feelings that I had were very different from the feelings that I had, maybe 2015 to 2017.

[00:15:20] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And it's not specifically feelings of me, like how'd I feel about me, but just feelings in general. So. One period of my life, I was extremely bubbly. Another period of my life I was really irritable and cranky. So, these particular periods of my life where I was having these set of feelings really did change who I thought I was.

[00:15:43] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And then if we go even further deep. Or into the core of who we are. We have beliefs about who we are in this world and these beliefs are formed when we're really young and a lot of these beliefs form when we're before, we are able to consciously tease apart how we're developing these beliefs. But once these beliefs are formed, the life experiences that we continue to have afterwards really do either nurture those beliefs or don't.

[00:16:14] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And then we have a particular area of our brain called the reticular activating system, which is the part of your brain that says, oh, this information that I, I am seeing. It's important to what JiSunny believes about herself. So, I'm going to send that information up and Sani can be consciously aware of it versus if my unconscious mind saying that information coming in right now, that data is not conducive to what Jisunny believes.

[00:16:40] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: So, we're not going to send it up. And when I say conducive, I don't mean helpful. I mean, does it corroborate what I believe about myself in this world?

[00:16:48] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: If it does, it'll send it up to my awareness. If it doesn't, then I'm never gonna see it. It reminds me of when I was, um, I think it was in high school. I was walking next to a friend, and she was complaining to me about how she didn't have enough money to do the things that she wanted.

[00:17:03] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: So like, I can't get my nails done. I can't go out with my friends. Right. She was complaining about how there was so much lack in her life and. We are having this conversation walking to the diner, it's plain as day. There is a $20 bill on the ground, and we're walking. It's right there in in the middle of the sidewalk.

[00:17:21] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And I'm looking at the $20 bill. I'm looking at my friend, I'm looking at the $20 bill. I'm looking at my friend going, when is she gonna see this? This money? But she never does. In fact, we walked past the money, and I had to like. Like tap her shoulder, pull her back and say, hey, we have to go back a few steps

[00:17:38] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: 'cause you just completely missed something. And it was her unconscious mind saying, oh, that $20 bill doesn't corroborate what she believes about life. So we're not even gonna send it up to awareness. She so she doesn't see it. So these beliefs that we form when we're very young, subconscious beliefs, create bigger and growing ripples of this is how I really believe this world is or isn't. 

[00:18:04] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And so the experiences that we're having, the information that comes up to our awareness either continue to grow that belief or doesn't. And so that belief that I have, that I formed when I was really young will shape my feelings, will shape what types of thoughts I have, will shape how I compare myself to others.

[00:18:22] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Do I compare up? Do I compare down, will shape the particular roles that I play in my life, and then will actually begin to shape my environment. So, the types of people I hang out the, the feedback that I I receive from other people, um, where I live in this world, or what type of house or environment I have, um, in my room, in my kitchen, in my office, right?

[00:18:45] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: So that particular set of beliefs. When we're young, really do ripple out and create these big changes and they get even bigger the more we hold onto them and the older we get. 

[00:18:57] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: So when we can look at ourselves and be consciously aware of these layers of the identity funnel, we can. Identify whether we like who we are in each of those layers or who we are not, or what we don't like about ourselves in each of those layers.

[00:19:15] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And I think being socially or consciously aware of each of those layers are extremely important for us to understand, um, that. You know that, that saying, it's always an inside job and we need to take care of the relationship with ourselves first before we can actually begin to take care of the relationship outward.

[00:19:36] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: So the identity funnel, I think is extremely important when we're thinking about, you know, do I feel good in my relationships, do I not? And why is that?

[00:19:46] Shanenn Bryant: Oh my gosh. thank you so much for giving such a great visual One question that came to me when you were talking was, I think a lot of times we go, you know, I know I'm feeling insecure. I know that I compare down, I think less of myself than other people. At the same time, there's like, I'm also thinking, but I know that you're a really good person and you are really great, and you do have these things going for you and you are smart and look at the things that you've accomplished. So, I think sometimes it feels really hard because You can truly think both of those things at the same time, which seems really conflicting. So what's on when that's happening? It's like,

[00:20:36] Shanenn Bryant: I am strong, but I'm not strong.

[00:20:39] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: So there is that adult version of you that knows intellectually how you want to feel about yourself, and you do have particular life experiences that you've collected and you know, kept in your pocket that say, I am strong, I am worthy of love, I am beautiful, I am resilient. But you also have that part of you, that inner child that we like to call her or him.

[00:21:03] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: That really took on these beliefs when we were young, before we had the resources to be able to process and analyze what was happening. That inner child that had the particular experience or experiences that said . You are not strong. You're very weak. You are less than the person next to you, or you're not worthy of love because your mom didn't even wanna pay attention to you when you cried out for help or when you needed her she was never there. 

[00:21:33] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: So if your mom couldn't give you the love, then who will, right? So like we have these core beliefs that really settled in to our brain and our body, and it shows up in the way that we . Maybe we slouch or the way that we walk or the way we talk or express ourselves. Our bodies don't lie, but we have that part of us that really does require the soothing, the healing, the attention that he or she never received when we were little, that that little child who may not have had the capacity to express with language what was happening, to be able to give them that.

[00:22:12] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Space to say it's okay. You are lovable and you are great. Um. And I think that does very much conflict. But the thing is, whenever the two do conflict, it's kind of like the brain. The inner child will always win. So it's kind of like with the reptilian brain is turned on and activated. It doesn't matter whether you are feeling like you've got really great friends or you know you're a really great psychologist, those two parts of the brain completely shut off.

[00:22:44] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: And that reptilian brain will always win because our survival is extremely important.

[00:22:49] Shanenn Bryant: Uh, so good, so good. Yeah. That's why you stay kind of in that stuck mode. 'cause it's like I can tell myself all day long or remind myself, but.

[00:23:00] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Mm-Hmm.

[00:23:00] Shanenn Bryant: That doesn't change it so how do we then start to change those things? I know you were saying, asking some questions, um, of ourselves. how do we get there and how do we make that change

[00:23:14] Shanenn Bryant: 

[00:23:14] Shanenn Bryant: just saying, no, you're great, you're confident to really believing it and changing that as a belief.

[00:23:22] Shanenn Bryant: Yes. I think if we take a two-pronged approach, it's the most complete or most effective way to change. The first pronged approach is taking the action steps to, . Tell your unconscious mind that you're serious, that you really do want this change. And then the other pronged approach is receiving that, receiving us.

[00:23:45] Shanenn Bryant: So you know how we have that conflict of, I wanna do and I wanna do all these things to achieve. And then we also have the part of us that just wants. To be and to receive. So it's like that masculine and feminine parts of us that are always, they're not in conflict, but we tend to overfeed or over nurture one over the other.

[00:24:05] Shanenn Bryant: So if we can bring the two back into balance and we can say, okay, I know I have the will. And the agency to say, I want to, um, feel loved. I'm going to take action steps to tell my subconscious mind or my body that I'm serious, that this is a change that I want. So that means maybe perhaps putting a list together of, okay, these are the mantras that I'm going to tell myself every morning that I'm meditating.

[00:24:34] Shanenn Bryant: So doing. Action step, taking action steps to actually follow through on what you're saying you want, that not only wires our subconscious mind to begin to look for new information, but it also tells the universe, if you will, that universe can trust you when you say, I want this. And then the other approach is the aspect of the feminine where you are allowing yourself to receive the change.

[00:25:02] Shanenn Bryant: And that really is not the intellectual piece, but it's the feeling piece. So doing what you can to, Whether it's through meditation, whether it's through connecting to nature, for example, or whether it's allowing yourself to be in flow through painting or playing the piano, um, but allowing yourself to get lost in the receiving

[00:25:27] Shanenn Bryant: Energy aspect versus I'm gonna do, do, do is really important. So, for example, I can create a list of mantras or affirmations that I will say to myself in my meditation. The second pronged approach I can take is, um, for those of you who are. Experience with things like hypnosis or self-hypnosis, we can engage in that where we're approaching our subconscious mind to receive the change.

[00:25:55] Shanenn Bryant: Um, or we can allow ourselves to just receive the, for lack of a better word, love to receive love when we're painting, to receive love when we're playing the piano. So a lot of us think self-care is about, you know, let's get our nails done, let's get a massage, but self-care really is about receiving and receiving doesn't only happen when you are doing those things that take care of your physical body, but it's also your psyche, your spirit.

[00:26:25] Shanenn Bryant: So how can you receive the gifts of life or the gift of love by allowing yourself to get lost with everything at the same time? Does that resonate?

[00:26:37] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. It is that choice coming back to choice of

[00:26:41] Shanenn Bryant: I'm gonna make this choice to change that, and how am I gonna do that? How am I gonna do that? Through actions so that

[00:26:49] Shanenn Bryant: you can do some rewiring.

[00:26:52] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Yes, and to receive that I have actually, something just came up to me. I think the best way to be able to approach this would be to use what I call mindful awareness. And Mindful awareness is three different, if you think of a triangle, three different points, the first point of mindful awareness is to understand that you control where your attention goes.

[00:27:17] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: You can have everything else taken away from you, your health, your family, your job. The only thing that can't be taken away from you is your ability to choose where you're going to focus. So the, the top of the triangle is attention. Mindful awareness also includes something called attitude. So you get to choose what your attitude is going to be.

[00:27:39] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: If you are on the highway and I'm in the left lane and someone cuts me off, I can be really pissed that that person is being inconsiderate or I can choose to focus on something else, but have the attitude of curiosity. Maybe that person just really needs to get to the bathroom so I can choose my attitude.

[00:28:00] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: No one is in charge of that for me. And then the third point to the triangle of mindful awareness is aim. Remembering what your aim or your, your intention is. So what is your intention for this day or your life? What do you want to focus your attention in that particular aspect of your life? So how you want to go.

[00:28:26] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: So attention, aim, and attitude are the three points to the mindful awareness triangle that I love to, for myself, it's really important to come back to every so often so that I remember that when I'm doing my work, whether it's because I need to grow or I need to heal, or there is a particular relationship that's triggering me.

[00:28:51] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: It really does help to reframe it so that I feel more so in, in control, and I think we go back to the beginning of our conversation when we talked about the unknown. The unknown will always be there. It has to, it's the contrast to what we are always in control of, which are the three things, attention, attitude, and aim.

[00:29:12] Shanenn Bryant: Hmm. I love it because if you think about it in that way, then there really isn't any unpredictable, like you're okay in that unpredictable or unknown. I love it. Yes.

[00:29:24] Shanenn Bryant: And I like the aim part because that is really what you have to continue to remind yourself, like, why am I doing this?

[00:29:34] Shanenn Bryant: What do I want? Like,

[00:29:36] Shanenn Bryant: what is my ultimate goal? And if you keep that in mind, I think the attention and the attitude. Makes it easier, right? It makes it like,

[00:29:45] Shanenn Bryant: okay, if this is what I really want, then I can change my attitude and, and then, you know, I can also choose where I want to put my attention. I don't wanna put my attention there, or I do want to put my attention here because that's, this is

[00:29:59] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Exactly.

[00:30:01] Shanenn Bryant: I love it. Love it. Jisunny, thank you so much. What a powerful message you have and what great information that you've shared with us today. Thank you so much. I know this is gonna help a ton of people. I appreciate you being on Top Self.

[00:30:18] Dr. Jisunny Fisher: Thank you for having me.

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