Recognizing Your Patterns Through Body Talk w/ Michelle Brown EP 84

[00:00:00] Shanenn Bryant: Welcome back to the Top Self podcast. My name is Shanenn Bryant, and I have with me today, functional nutrition and lifestyle practitioner, Michelle Brown.

You also have a certificate as a mastery level biology of trauma advanced provider. Welcome and then tell us what that is.

[00:00:22] Michelle Brown: Yes, I would be happy to. Thank you so much for having me, Shanenn. As a functional nutrition counselor, of course, I got into this work and working with nutrition and, lifestyle practices, of course. But then I started working with this, trauma piece. And the work I did with my clients and found that wow, this really shifted everything that I thought I knew about how to work with the healing response of the body. And so that biology of trauma certification was my ability to start learning how trauma affects the body, how I like to say our nervous system response is really at the root of all of these different patterns that show up in our life. I work with a lot of clients who have anxiety or depression or ADHD, a lot of kind of brain and mood type stuff going on. But of course they often have other things like digestive issues and chronic pain and other patterns that show up and it's all related and we can all trace it back to our nervous system response. So I'm really excited to talk about how kind of laying this foundation with the nervous system is a really amazing way to start shifting some of these chronic patterns that so many people are struggling with today.

[00:01:37] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah, I love how you,take both the mind and body approach to this because when we, especially when we're suffering from insecurity and jealousy in our relationship, we do have both. We have that anxiety, we're usually either in fight or flight when we're triggered, we know it's just wrecking our body,

[00:02:00] Michelle Brown: Yes, it really does go both ways, right? Our thoughts have an impact on our biology, and our biology has an impact on our thoughts and these different patterns that can show up. And when I say biology, I like to define that because some people, when I'm talking about it, ask, what do you mean by biology?

[00:02:17] Michelle Brown: And basically, I'm just talking about really like the biochemical stuff that's happening in the body. If we're low in nutrients, if we are low in certain neurotransmitters, if we have inflammation, these are things that are happening on a biology level within the body. And again, it can really impact different ways that they, things show up in our life in terms of our response to stress.

[00:02:40] Michelle Brown: Like how? how easily we're triggered by certain things or how we might feel anxiety in our body or depression, right? These things can show up based on our biology. And so it really does take a mind body approach, It's not ever just one or the other. It's really both of these things playing a role in how different patterns are showing up in our life and our thoughts. And so I find we really need to think about addressing both sides of that coin, because if we miss one piece of it, often we don't really get to that place of being safe and calm and embodied, as I like to say, where we feel like we are in our body and we are ourselves, if that makes sense, right? Have you ever felt like, I just don't feel like I'm myself, right?

[00:03:27] Michelle Brown: And so that, that approach really encompasses everything that's impacting how we feel in our body and about our body and in our life. And so it's a really important way to address these underlying patterns.

[00:03:41] Shanenn Bryant: This really strikes a chord with me and I know people go, what are you talking about like, how does what I eat or exercise or sleep have to do with me being jealous at my relationship? And I shared a story where I had a little setback, a little mini jealous meltdown. And , I saw the signs coming.

[00:04:03] Shanenn Bryant: There were so many things that contributed to it. I was tired. I hadn't eaten. I was super hungry. And so all of those things, like you said, they have an effect on that anxiety in our body and like kind of other things, how we handle and manage stress in those situations as well.

[00:04:25] Michelle Brown: Yes, I love that example because I think it's a really simple way for anyone to understand. Like we all can relate to having been overly tired or we like missed a meal or hungry, right? We say we're hangry sometimes, right? Because we can understand that, when our body or our physiology is out of balance, like it totally affects our mood and our emotions and the way we relate with people in our lives. And yet it can go on a much deeper level, right? Like we're talking about patterns of like jealousy and different things that could show up. And sometimes when we have an imbalance in our physiology, like we're not methylated well, or we have different kind of, again, neurotransmitter, uh, imbalances, they really impact us at really this fundamental level of how our mood can show up.

[00:05:13] Michelle Brown: So I mentioned methylation and I can talk more about what that is and what that means if you want to go there, but basically for someone who I'm working with, I can test, do some simple blood work actually to find out how they're methylating and, it's interesting, the first thing I do is give them an assessment because if they're under methylating, there's actually very specific patterns that often show up in a person like that.

[00:05:37] Michelle Brown: And it can look like OCD, perfectionist type behaviors, depression, sometimes anxiety as well. So when somebody starts checking these boxes, that all of these different kinds of patterns that we wouldn't necessarily relate to.an imbalance on the biology level. But yet we can do some testing and find out there actually are some physiological things happening.

[00:06:00] Michelle Brown: They're actually driving these behavior patterns that are showing up. And then, I've seen as we bring in specific support for these imbalanced patterns, then these patterns in our behavior then shift as well. So it's really fascinating this,this dichotomy between our body and our biology and our mood and mind and how it all comes together.

[00:06:23] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. could you explain and talk about what methylating means?

[00:06:28] Michelle Brown: Yeah,and I find when I mentioned methylation to a lot of my clients I'm working with one on one, they say, Oh yeah, I've done some genetic testing and I have the MTHFR SNP. So a lot of people have heard of that and so that MTHFR SNP is related to how well we methylate. And basically methylation is this process, this chemical process that happens in the body. And it does a number of different things. So we know a lot about it from how well maybe we detox, right? If we're methylating well, we're detoxing well. Basically it's just this process where the body is, putting a methyl group onto any kind of molecule. And it depends on the molecule that we're methylating in terms of what it's actually doing, but it can impact our, again, I use the word neurotransmitters a couple of times as well.

[00:07:16] Michelle Brown: And I'm just talking about basically signaling molecules in the body that impact our mood, right? So if we have, serotonin that helps us feel calm and safe in our body, same as GABA for instance, but if we're low in these neurotransmitters, we just don't have the chemicals in our body that like basically tell our body that we're okay, we're safe, we can feel good.

[00:07:39] Michelle Brown: And so that shows up as depression or anxiety. So methylation. can have a pretty profound impact on our mood and then other aspects of our health. Like again, how well we're detoxing, it impacts DNA methylation as well. So even at that very fundamental cellular level that can impact so many different things,just in terms of our overall health, methylation is actually a really important piece of the puzzle.

[00:08:06] Michelle Brown: And so I'm always looking at that with clients who are fitting into that pattern, as I mentioned, of maybe anxiety, depression, OCD, ADHD, these types of patterns that, perfectionism, these all can indicate maybe someone isn't methylating well, and then again, we can support that and help them get back to a place of balance.

[00:08:28] Shanenn Bryant: And so what are some of those symptoms that indicate the low transmitter function? Is that the anxiety and depression and things like that? Are those the symptoms? Interesting like with methylation. It's I like to say there's like this constellation of symptoms that can show up around these different neurotransmitters. So I mentioned serotonin. I mentioned GABA. I might look at something like dopamine and they all do a little bit differently. something different in the body. And so when they're low, it can show up in different ways. for someone who's low in dopamine, for example, they may be having trouble focusing, like finishing tasks, staying on track,that fight, flighty type of behavior where we just can't seem to stay focused on what we're doing. those are the types of behaviors that I relate to low dopamine. And that can look very different than someone who's low in serotonin, for instance. So with serotonin, I would be looking at are they noticing behavioral changes like depression, maybe around the seasons as well, right? Like seasonal affective disorders often related to serotonin. And that has to do with how sunlight actually impacts our serotonin levels. But, they also might have patterns like,looking for carbs or chocolate or sugar in the late afternoon or evening, because that's just a pattern of low serotonin. We actually use carbohydrates to create serotonin as well. again, our body's looking for that hit from carbs to get our serotonin levels up so we can just feel good. So it's like there's like different patterns that show up around these different neurotransmitters. And I, give my clients an assessment and I can share it actually that with you or your audience if you, would like to share that with them.

[00:10:11] Michelle Brown: But, again, we can take these different neurotransmitter systems and start checking the boxes around these different kind of patterns, behaviors, thought patterns, even that show up that can tell us which neurotransmitter system is potentially low. And then there's specific, things we can do with nutrition and. sometimes supplements. I use a lot of herbs. I'm also a clinical herbalist and so I use a lot of herbal support and, there are certain herbs that help increase GABA or serotonin, for example. So once we know what we're looking at, we start noticing the pattern, we start recognizing what is potentially happening in the body.

[00:10:47] Michelle Brown: And we know exactly what support then we can use to, to shift those behaviors and low mood symptoms that might be showing up.

[00:10:55] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. Okay. so Michelle, I'm going to blame my, chocolate addiction on low serotonin and my lack of, getting stuff done or things I want to get done on, and not having enough dopamine, right? 

[00:11:11] Shanenn Bryant: Okay, that's beautiful. And let's talk about, you do have the assessment.

[00:11:17] Shanenn Bryant: I'm going to link that in the show notes. Can you just share a little bit what it's called and a little bit about what that will do for someone if they take this assessment?

[00:11:25] Michelle Brown: Yeah, absolutely. So the mood fix assessment again, it's just looking at four specific neurotransmitter systems that are commonly low in anyone who's struggling with any of these patterns we've talked about, right? Like easily stressed out, maybe showing up as anxiety or depression or challenges with eating patterns or focus, right?

[00:11:43] Michelle Brown: All of these things. So you can take that assessment. It's basically just a little quick quiz where you're just checking the box on any of these symptoms. And then, you can look at that and recognize which of these systems you're potentially low in that might need support. And then in that guide, I'll share with you a few really quick, easy things you can do to start supporting neurotransmitter levels that will make a big difference, 

[00:12:07] Michelle Brown: I've seen how supporting Low neurotransmitters can really shift some of these patterns. And I think that's really exciting, Shanenn, because sometimes when women are struggling or men, of course, too, but as women, when we're struggling with our mood and we're feeling that anxiety or depression or these patterns showing up with eating that we maybe are unwanted, we can really feel like, Oh, what's wrong with me?

[00:12:31] Michelle Brown: Like, why can't I snap out of it? And what I want your listeners to take away is sometimes it's a biological imbalance that's driving some of these thought patterns and behaviors. And if we address that biology side of things, then we can start to see some of these patterns just shift very easily on their own.

[00:12:51] Michelle Brown: And we're not fighting against our own biology. And that's why I think, it's really important to recognize that there is a biology component to some of these patterns that might be showing up in life and you can do something about it.

[00:13:04] Shanenn Bryant: So good. Okay, so we covered the body side. I really want to switch over to the mind part and talk about trauma and, ask, what are trauma responses and then how did they impact our day to day mood, our energy? I certainly know how that it shows up for me. And especially when we're talking about jealousy and relationships, obviously that comes from trauma experienced in my childhood and it does for many others as well, but what is the trauma response and then how is that showing up?

[00:13:40] Michelle Brown: Yes, I'm going to take it back to this biology side of things because trauma is really a nervous system response of the body to anything that feels like too much, too fast, or it might be too little for too long. And that's basically a definition that has been postulated to understand more about what trauma is. You know, before I started working with trauma, with my clients and went on to become a biology of trauma practitioner. I really just thought, Shanenn, like trauma is like this really terrible thing that happened to you, right? Or maybe you had a really bad car accident. You were in some kind of physical trauma. And I didn't understand that trauma is something we've all experienced, first of all, because we've all been where, we've Something felt overwhelming to our nervous system. And when I say that, it's important to know that the job of our nervous system is to tell us that we're safe, in our body, that we're safe in this environment that we're in. And if we go through life with this sense of, I'm not safe, our nervous system begins to develop patterns that are there to protect us, but they can actually at some point become,counterbalanced. in that these show up in our biology. we start to see shifts into things like inflammation and, hormone imbalances that are actually impacted by this, nervous system response. And so, you know, you mentioned like early life experiences so we may have this sense of I'm not safe in the world because, for whatever reason, when we were, very young, we didn't have that sense of being safe, or our caregivers maybe didn't give us that sense of safety that we needed, or maybe something did happen that was, what we would consider a big T trauma, and that shifted the way our body was able to show up and feel safe in our environment. And so it's really important to recognize that because even if I'm working with someone with the biology side of things, unless they get to that point where they can start to recognize what's happening in their body and bring in that sense of felt safety in the body, not just a thought of I'm safe, but we need to really literally feel in our body. That we're safe, then we're really struggling against this nervous system response that shifts our entire biology into a place of protection, which is really a place of shifting again into inflammation and can shift our hormonal response. And so many of these patterns that show up that sometimes people have a really hard time,moving the needle, right?

[00:16:12] Michelle Brown: I don't know if you've worked with clients who. Have a lot of chronic patterns showing up in their life, whether again, just maybe emotional patterns, but also, I work on that biology side again so people with chronic pain or fibromyalgia or autoimmune conditions, and we have a lot of research pointing back to how these conditions are related to early life trauma, and, we need to work with that felt sense of safety in the body to get to that place where we can allow the nervous system to tell the body, okay, we're safe now. We can relax, right? We can be in our body and we can be okay. Yes,

[00:16:47] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. And definitely the person listening to this podcast is, has experienced that and most likely does have or has carried that sense of I am unsafe. And so they're carrying that trauma in their body. They're carrying, that, that stress and that tense, feelings of emotion in their body. and definitely have the I am unsafe.

[00:17:13] Shanenn Bryant: So what are some things that we can do to get our body to recognize or start to recognize that we are safe? 

[00:17:22] Michelle Brown: It's important, right? We need to actually start experiencing safety in our body. And I'll share a really quick story with you that actually, this was my, first introduction to working with my own nervous system. And about, oh, six or so years ago, I was going through a divorce and I found myself in, of course, a stressful place in life at that time.

[00:17:41] Michelle Brown: And, I moved to a new city with my kids and of course, like the financial stress and all of that, It was pretty stressful for me. And So I found myself, putting my kids in a bed at night and then I'd go into my kitchen and I'd grab a jar of peanut butter and a bag of chocolate chips and I would just start eating. And a little backstory on that, like I struggled with eating disorders as a teenager because I didn't have that sense of feeling safe and supported at that time in my life. There was some trauma that happened, and I was able to overcome that, in my early twenties and move on with my life.

[00:18:14] Michelle Brown: But now here I am mid thirties struggling with food again. And I'm in a health coach by this time

[00:18:18] Michelle Brown: now. In my head, I'm like, what am I doing? It really felt out of control and that scared me, of course. And I felt guilty and ashamed about this. and it was right around this time. I was just starting to learn about this nervous system response.

[00:18:32] Michelle Brown: I was actually working with, another coach in a mindset program. And she invited us in this program to just start noticing and feeling, she called it feeling your feelings. And so I'll explain this really quickly, but basically, when you're feeling actual true hunger, you might notice, I'm putting my hand on my belly because we tend to feel like rumbling in our belly, right?

[00:18:53] Michelle Brown: Like that kind of our belly clenching as it's, empty and it's sending the signal to the brain like I need to eat. But if we think about a different emotion, like anxiety, for example, and as you're listening, you can think about where do you feel this in your body? But for many people, again, I'll put my hands here at the top of my chest because that's where I feel it. It literally feels like someone is standing there just pushing against my chest, right? It's very uncomfortable. And, we might see some other emotion like anger, for example, might feel like tension in the back of the neck or the shoulders, right? When we say we're feeling something like anxiety, anger, fear, we're actually feeling something in our body. And so the next time I went into the kitchen, that coach had invited me to just stop before I reached for food thinking I truly was hungry and I needed to eat and just notice what I was feeling in my body. And Shanenn, I was blown away to recognize that I was not hungry at all, right? There was no like sensation, hunger in my belly. I was feeling this like intense anxiety, this pressure on my chest. And it sounds really simple. But I was so disconnected from what I was actually feeling in my body. And we often do that when we've experienced trauma. we disconnect from what we're feeling because it's uncomfortable that I didn't even recognize that I wasn't hungry.

[00:20:15] Michelle Brown: I was feeling anxiety. And that was the first like step for me and overcoming along with doing some biology things, working with my neurotransmitters, and supporting those that, that were playing a role as well. But that was the first step of just noticing what I'm feeling in my body. And, I work with some somatic tools to help my clients then start working with. with their body and start creating this sense of I'm safe in my body. I'm okay. I can be here in this place and feel safe. And of course we're talking about actually being in a safe place, right? Like I'm in my room right now, here in my office, you're in your office.

[00:20:53] Michelle Brown: And I can look around like there's no tiger about to jump out and get me so I can tell my body, okay, I'm safe now. And so we need to start working with that. The felt sense of safety in the body and combining that with the biology and then doing, the thoughts parts work that we need to bring in as well in order to really get to that place where we can start shifting some of these patterns that are showing up that feel so overwhelming sometimes, right?

[00:21:19] Michelle Brown: And we can feel so guilty or ashamed of maybe how Some of these things are showing up. Like for me, it was with reaching for food when I wasn't truly hungry and binge eating basically. And that's how we get to that place of really shifting those patterns and starting to feel safe in our body.

[00:21:38] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah, I always think it's, somebody did this to me once and I always just think it's an amazing thing and it's so simple, but it just does show you a little bit of like how much we're on autopilot and we just aren't connected to our body, but they were like,feel your feet on the floor.

[00:21:56] Shanenn Bryant: Feel the sensation of your feet on the floor and I was like, Oh my gosh, like I've never. That's why I want everybody to do that right now because then it just brings that attention to oh Now I'm feeling that right. Whereas before I could sit here all day long and not be connected to that.

[00:22:16] Michelle Brown: So true. 

[00:22:17] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah, I love what you're saying, especially when it comes to food and things like that, of what is it really, and where is it showing up in your body when we're jealous, when we feel triggered, when we're emotional, where are we feeling that in our body? It's so important to be able to notice that.

[00:22:36] Michelle Brown: So true. And then as we notice that it takes away a lot of the judgment we have around it and we can start working with that sense of whatever we're feeling and shift it. But until we're aware of it, we just can't even move the needle because we don't have the awareness that we need to work with these tools and notice what's happening and then start shifting things.

[00:22:58] Shanenn Bryant: You may have covered this, but, you talk about like the critical pieces of the nervous system regulation that most people are missing when they're trying to, support their mood and address trauma. What's that missing piece?

[00:23:14] Michelle Brown: Yeah. So I, again, I like to start by, that sense of safety in the body, working with those somatic tools. I like to call them mind body tools because I don't just use somatic experiencing tools, but other mind body practices that again just really help us to connect to what's happening in our body and start creating that sense of safety. And then, we work on the biology at the same time. So, you know, If even if someone's using those mind body tools, but they're low in serotonin or they're low in dopamine, like they're going to really struggle to really get to that place of feeling truly embodied and safe in their body because,they just don't have those building blocks they need to create the nervous system response.

[00:23:58] Michelle Brown: They're looking for that sense of safety. And then that other piece is. I like to work with my clients on their what I call routines and rituals. Just because what I found was, as I was doing this work with my clients, like I could help them with their diet and maybe we use some supplements if needed or herbal support. And we would talk about these mind body practices. But as I started working with some clients who were really struggling with like their energy and really moving forward with their health. I started questioning them around their routines. And I found a lot of people are not really tuning into these rhythms that their body is needing them to regulate, to stay In In a place of being safe in their nervous system, right? 

[00:24:44] Michelle Brown: We're talking about when we, when I say safe in the nervous system, I'm talking about that parasympathetic response of the nervous system. It's what we call rest and digest, right? As well. And if we're not in that space, we're either in we're in sympathetic, which is our stress response, or when things become too overwhelming, that's when we go into what we call that trauma response, which is also known as the chronic freeze response as well, right.

[00:25:10] Michelle Brown: And. So we really want to get into that place of parasympathetic response of the nervous system where we feel safe. We feel like we are engaged with life and active, and yet we're calm and we're not, anxious and overwhelmed by the things that are happening. so to get there, if we are, we're bouncing in between, or back and forth between sympathetic and freeze. We are not going to be able to get to that place where we want to be. And I had a lot of clients who were like really working to stay up and sympathetic just to get through their day basically. Like they use their sympathetic response to engage with life because that's what they felt like they needed to get through their day. 

[00:25:51] Michelle Brown: And then by the time they like would get home from work or whatever, they would be so worn out from trying to keep their body in this place of stress that they would just crash, right? They'd go right into the freeze response. And so I work with, them to create balancing routines within their day.

[00:26:07] Michelle Brown: These kind of these touch points almost throughout their day of checking in with our body, noticing what's going on, bringing in support. And one simple place to start is just with your meals, Are you sitting down and having three meals a day? that was one thing with clients who were like, no, I'm not.

[00:26:25] Michelle Brown: I'm just going through my day. I'm skipping lunch or I'm not really too hungry. Yeah. And and right. And then their body gets to that point of even on that biology level, right? Their blood sugar starts dropping, or they just don't have the nutrients they need to create energy. All of a sudden they're crashing, So that's why for me, that third pillar of nervous system regulation is working with your routines and making sure you're staying in this parasympathetic response. During your day, of course, we're going to have times where we feel stressed and we can go into these different places of our nervous system.

[00:26:59] Michelle Brown: But the idea is that we're always able to come back to parasympathetic, that place of feeling safe and supported and be living life from that place instead of constantly, living in a stress response or bouncing back and forth between chronic stress and crashing into freeze. .

[00:27:18] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. Oh, so good, Michelle. Thank you so much. You've given, a lot of really great tips. Is there one step that somebody can take today, towards moving to overcome that anxiety?

[00:27:33] Michelle Brown: I would say if you're new to some of the things we've talked about today, first of all, I think it would be great to just download the mood fix assessment and see what, which of your neurotransmitter systems might need support. And then again, I have really simple tips in there to help you get started with supporting neurotransmitters. and then the other thought I had would just be if you're new to feeling what you're feeling in your body, like we talked about, Where I, for probably the first time in my life, truly felt anxiety and recognize it for what it was in my body in my mid thirties, start noticing just as you're feeling different things coming up, where are you feeling it in your body?

[00:28:09] Michelle Brown: You might feel uncomfortable, but it's when we start noticing where we're feeling these sensations in our body that we can then start working with the different tools we have to support this felt sense of safety in the body and start shifting those patterns.

[00:28:25] Shanenn Bryant: Wonderful. That's so good. I appreciate you being on TopSelf and giving all of this really valuable information. So thank you so much, Michelle.

[00:28:37] Michelle Brown: Thank you for having me, Shanenn. It was my pleasure.

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