The Jealousy Scale - From OK to No Way: A We're Not Fine & Top Self Collaboration EP 105

[00:00:00] Shanenn Bryant: Okay, if you are having a bad day, if your morning started out a little hectic, if you're down in the dumps, your mood's about to change, my friend. You're about to feel different. Get ready to laugh your ass off because I have relationship therapist Dr. Talia Jackson and Doug Jensen here with me today. Hi, the two of you.  So good to see you again. 

[00:00:28] We're Not Fine: It's so good to see you, too. Thanks for having us back. We're so happy to be here. And I'm, I'm pleased that you feel people will feel more positively about their day after us. I hope so. That's a lot of presh. 

[00:00:39] Shanenn Bryant: I was gonna say, yeah. Yeah, the pressure is on, kind of, but I am pretty confident about it. You guys are the, like, and I told you this, you're the funnest. couple, not couple, I think I've ever met. You two host an amazing podcast called We're Not Fine, where you talk about relationships, no holds barred, and I thought it would be a lot of fun to have the two of you on, and we're going to do this off the cuff round table of questions, because I certainly get a lot of questions about life, relationships from listeners, from clients.

[00:01:18] I know the two of you do too. And so, I pulled in, some of the more like common questions that come up all the time, where it seems like people are a little bit like, just tell me what to do. Tell me what's quote unquote normal. So that I know, right? So that I know if, um, you know, how I'm feeling, especially people listening to this podcast and potentially yours, they're always second guessing.

[00:01:45] They're, it, they're having those insecurities. They're second guessing themselves So we're gonna, we're gonna answer some of those questions. I do want to say, um, you know, take what you want, leave what you want. We're not saying that this is what you have to do, what you should do, what you must do.  This is just. What we think, right?

[00:02:05] We're Not Fine: Not to disappoint anyone in advance, but what if everything we say is normal is so not one size fits all. And its sort of, if it's working for you or not working for you, but we're excited about the idea of this rapid fire. Like, is this, okay? Is this not okay? But that's the discussion, right?

[00:02:28] Like, I think just even hearing that other people experience the same thing and you're not alone and that it is more normal, even if it feels like uncomfortable for you, can be really validating of your experience. So that's the greatest part of it.

[00:02:40] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. And I agree with you that the answer to all of these might be like, well, whatever works best for you and for your relationship and the, the relationship agreement that you set, but it then does say, hey, it's okay. And maybe we need to talk about these things and have the conversation.

[00:03:01] We're Not Fine: We do it all day, every day. And we could talk about, even if there's no such thing as normal, just all the different little nooks and crannies and facets of each of the questions.

[00:03:13] It’s part of being human. We're all kind of different, and yet we're all the same in some ways.

[00:03:17] Especially if you somehow are both wearing dark royal purple. Isn't that great? Doug coordinated us. I did.

[00:03:27] We're Not Fine: We're very matchy right now. I mean, we look like literally identical twins. Well, Shanenn kind of has a lighter version of this. No,

[00:03:37] Shanenn Bryant: That's right. Yeah.

[00:03:39] Shanenn Bryant: You know what's funny? If I go back to the vault and I pull, um, when we interviewed before, I think you both had green on.

[00:03:45] We're Not Fine: jealousy! Yeah, we were trying to find anything green

[00:03:50] Shanenn Bryant: Yes.

[00:03:51] We're Not Fine: This is all him. Because like, I am really comfortable with some clashing, but Doug wants us to be identical twins. Yeah,

[00:04:09] Shanenn Bryant: I love it. Yes. All right. Okay. So here is, I kind of pulled some questions together. Um, and then, you know, whatever pops into your minds of some things that you all have been asked but this is one that I hear a lot, that I get a lot, is, is it okay for my partner to keep things from their ex.  So, the birthday cards, the, the love notes, the, you know, um, pictures from vacation.

[00:04:44] We're Not Fine: Woah. Like, keep memorabilia!

[00:04:48] Shanenn Bryant: Mm hmm.

[00:04:52] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:04:53] We're Not Fine: I was thinking it was keep secrets from their ex, and I was like, I think that's actually really appropriate, and great boundaries, this is making a whole new shade of sense.

[00:05:02] Shanenn Bryant: Okay, let's come back to that though, but yes. 

[00:05:07] We're Not Fine: I mean, Yes. I

[00:05:11] Shanenn Bryant: Mm hmm.

[00:05:11] We're Not Fine: Totally! Okay. That's your life. These are your memories. And honestly, unless the person is still obsessed with their ex and it's become a problem in the relationship, I feel like the nostalgia that we feel for our exes is less about the ex and more about. our youth and how we felt when we were with them.

[00:05:36] Or maybe it was before we had a thousand kids or maybe it was like we were footloose and fancy free or just like we, we miss ourselves from that stage of life. So, I say, unless it's a problem in the relationship, like hell yeah, keep the memorabilia. Well, there's two ways that I look at this. This looks like it's keeping from their ex is what,

[00:06:00] We're Not Fine: So, go ahead.

[00:06:01] Shanenn Bryant: Just saying. I have stuff in a box from my ex. pictures, cards etc.

[00:06:08] We're Not Fine: And you know, the thing that I would say, two things that I want to say, I, I did take it as like current stuff. Like, I have had people come in and say, do I have to tell my spouse that I cheated?

[00:06:19] We're Not Fine: with them, like, is it happening still? Are you likely to do it again? Have you figured out why you did it?

[00:06:24] And is it done? I don't think you need to bring up things that are going to cause more harm or damage that have no merit on the future of your relationship if you've worked through it. That's number one. But number two, I love when people go on dates and they're like, tell me about your life. Show me pictures of your life.

[00:06:40] Tell me everything about what worked for you. And that's where these things from the ex come in. Yeah. Like I love the idea of like opening that box and saying this was my life with this person. And by the way, I think about like widowers in that regard. 

[00:06:54] We're Not Fine: There’s a show on TV called Shrinking. And the, the, one of the therapists has lost. I love that. It's a crazy, crazy good show. I did not initially want to watch it. Boundaries are. That is not ethical, but it's still a good job. Well, and, one of our, uh, people who's on our podcast team lost his wife to a really tragic accident. And it's a critical part of his life that when he dates someone new, which he is, he's able to share that part of his life.

[00:07:24] So I find that to be an enriching thing. If I were to date somebody, tell me about your life. Tell me about your childhood. Tell me who you've been married to before or partnered with. about your relationship history. Like, I want to know it all, without fear. It should not be threatened. It should, that's, you said something really, really important there.

[00:07:40] It should not be threatened. It should not be threatening. Um, and so I don't think we should have to keep things from our ex about our ex because I think it enriches that person's understanding of us.

[00:07:53] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:07:54] We're Not Fine: I’m going to throw in a caveat. Tell me.

[00:07:57] Shanenn Bryant: Okay. Mmm. Mmm. Yeah,

[00:08:01] We're Not Fine: If it has not been resolved, if there is not closure, if the person feels like the ex is the one who got away, that could feel threatening.

[00:08:11] It could feel like this person is just like maybe obsessed or thinking about that would be a problem in the relationship. But I would still say don't keep it secret. That's a problem. Like then you have to say, I'm sorry, I wasn't really aware until we started dating that I'm not over my ex. And so, when I look at these pictures, I'm longing for that person and I'm still writing to them and I'm still hoping that they changed their mind on me. a whole different ball game. And that's a really important conversation. Yeah. So inspiring.

[00:08:37] Shanenn Bryant: So, if you come home and that partner's sitting with the box open and, you know, tissues and they're crying over their ex,

[00:08:43] We're Not Fine: That's it.

[00:08:44] Shanenn Bryant: That's probably not good.

[00:08:46] We're Not Fine: And really, I would, I would tell everyone, don't take that on personally. Just literally say, so tell me what's going on for you.

[00:08:54] We're Not Fine: Any relationship, as you know, Shanenn, is to be completely transparent and honest and open about all of those things. You know, there are parts of every one of my exes, if I started a new relationship, that are important to me. probably how you grew, and who you were, and what you learned. Really, what I learned.

[00:09:12] Shanenn Bryant: I think that's the biggest thing that you both were hitting on that I I'm wondering if people who are worried about this can maybe shift their mindset a bit. It isn't always Necessarily we get so hung up on like, oh They're keeping it because they're still in love with that person or they want to go look at that person again Or they want to be reminded of that person and what you all are saying is Oftentimes it's It's the memory of how we were at that time when we were with that person.

[00:09:41] You know, maybe we were in our 20s and it was footloose and fancy free, and we could go travel and we could do all this stuff and we experienced new things.

[00:09:49] We're Not Fine: Shanenn, that's a really beautiful way of talking about it, and I think that what you said about like changing your mindset about this or perception, like, it all in. It's not about you. It's not about whether they're really with you or not, but it's a critical part of their development and their life history. You know, in

[00:10:06] We're Not Fine: History is critical. Every single piece of it, um, I would say is critical to kind of digest and understand how it plays a role in your life puzzle.

[00:10:24] We're Not Fine: What are the missing links that you don't know about, like, what if they really, they traveled, uh, to the Bahamas before on a cruise and had a really horrible time and their ex and she, ex and they fought the whole time and then one of them fell in the water. I was eaten by a but seriously, don't go again. Like, that's a no go. So, we want to learn about our partners. Like I encourage people and that's why I'm, I'm a no holds barred on going on first dates and asking a lot of questions. And then when you get to know that person, bring out that box, share that part of your life with me.

[00:10:53] I want to know all of you. I have another thing that I want to add. Another caveat? No, it's in a different way to look at it. Yeah. The idea that if we loved our partner, the way we love our best friend, And we could just look at our best friend and understand that it's not so black and white that either they love their ex or they love me.

[00:11:18] But that can never, both things cannot be true. But if it was our best friend and you know how much he or she loved this person in this relationship, and you understood why it couldn't work and you're rooting for them and you understand that they can also have incredible love for their ex. spouse or their new partner and it isn't an either or it's this like Doug's Hates it.

[00:11:45] Doug hates it when I say, but like abundance mentality that it isn't like a tiny little shriveled up pie where there are only two pieces and you either love this person or this person. 

[00:11:56] Shanenn Bryant: That is so good. If I had a mic that I could drop, because You're right, we can talk to our girlfriends or our guy friends, and we can believe that they absolutely are in love with the person they're with now, and we were with them when they loved the person before.

[00:12:15] And it isn't a competition like, we wouldn't look at that as a competition. They're like, oh, okay, yeah, that didn't work for whatever reasons. Now they're with this person who they care about. Okay, well,

[00:12:26] We're Not Fine: Love is to look at your partner or boyfriend or girlfriend or spouse and really want them to be as fulfilled and satisfied and whole and happy. And I think to want to take those experiences away from someone feels a little on the selfish side and insecure side and really speaks to what this podcast is about. Like take away that experience of jealousy and insecurity and really take a look at what it is versus what your fear is. that's the, that's the, I love it. I

[00:12:58] Shanenn Bryant: cause you, you snuck in there and dropped a little something, and I know you freaked out my listeners because you were saying, Oh, well, if somebody cheats, just don't say anything. That's how they heard it. Right now, so let's tell, let's say what Let's talk about what you meant and why cuz I know how important that is, but I want you to explain yourself, sir 

[00:13:23] We're Not Fine: And so if you, I am delighted. And I, and this is a real example from my practice. Like this person came in and they had some guilt, and they had some shame and they said, do I need to tell someone about something that happened two years ago? Like that's the example, right? And so when that person, and I said, so tell me what, What you're thinking about, what the benefit is of bringing that up in a way that will betray trust when there's really no trust that needs to be rebuilt because that person was, and what I did was I grilled that person on, and it's been both men and women, by the way, right?

[00:13:53] So it's really critically important to understand that, you know, do we want to share things that are hurtful to somebody if they are done, if it's a one-time shot? kind of weigh that pros and cons of harming somebody that you love and making them doubt you and making them obsess and making them do all of that. If it's an ongoing affair, absolutely you have to fucking talk, excuse my language, talk about it, um, and bring it out into the open. The biggest piece of it though, Shanenn, in our work is to understand why somebody is engaging in infidelity. Why that person went outside of the relationship. What was missing?

[00:14:27] What was going on? Did you understand why you did that? And I remember just grilling this person. On why it is they did what they did. And they said, it's done. I have no interest. I don't even know that person. I, it was on a trip. I just got drunk and did something I shouldn't have done. I don't know that you need to disclose that.

[00:14:42] That is my take. And again, lots of people might disagree with that. 

[00:14:47] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah,

[00:14:47] We're Not Fine: If I’m that person on the other side, getting that information and being like, why would you tell me that? Like, I, I think that's what some people would respond. I would respond that way. I'd be like, if it was over, thank you for letting me know.

[00:14:58] But. don't think I would respond that way. What would you respond with? Well, I would want to have the ability to decide if I still want to be with that person. Yeah. Because I would feel like it's incredibly unfair that you got to totally mess up and go have the time of your life. And then I would feel like every moment after that moment was an active lie. Granted, there are many situations. But see, that's a distortion. wouldn't be true. Totally. Well, it may or may not, but the proof is in the pudding if the person is continuing to cheat or not. But no matter what, the betrayal has driven a wedge between the two people. And one person is holding a trauma.

[00:15:44] It was probably a trauma for them that they have to sit along with this dark secret. But what I do agree with, but it doesn't feel good. What I do agree with is there. are, I mean, we've been working with couples 20 years, 30 years, right? Like a culmination of 50 years, we've been working with couples I've worked with so many couples where it is just one stupid decision that

[00:16:13] We're Not Fine: reflective of who they are as a human. They aren't going to do it again. This isn't a decision. What do you say? Like, egocentric. It isn't, like, comfortable in who they are, and it probably will blow up the whole relationship. I

[00:16:29] Shanenn Bryant: yeah,

[00:16:30] We're Not Fine: Sometimes it doesn't make, it will blow up the relationship for no reason, but I feel like already been a lot of damage done, even if you don't say anything.

[00:16:39] Yeah, there's a lot of pieces to this puzzle, because the other piece of this is, in any of the work that we do, if that person is just gnawing, if they, if they're losing sleep about it, if it's getting brought up in some way, in their psyche and it is interfering with their ability to function at their best in the relationship.

[00:16:55] Yeah. I think you've got to say something. I think you got to bring it up and say, I made a mistake a couple of years ago. I think then you have to bring it up.

[00:17:02] We're Not Fine: just goes poisoning you. Of course. I mean, that's like anything else, anything that has to be disclosed, anything, anything of that nature. So, it's not a hundred percent. It's like, there are times though, and exactly what you said. Like, I think, Are we going to blow up this relationship that doesn't need to get blown up? Are we going to hurt someone by something?

[00:17:20] Shanenn Bryant: right,

[00:17:20] We're Not Fine: I think people view affairs differently, like I, or cheating differently because it's sex, but is that worse than spending 10, 000 on something that you didn't tell it to your spouse?

[00:17:31] Like it's all under the category of betrayal to me. And some people view sex as the most important

[00:17:38] Shanenn Bryant: the ultimate betrayal, right? Yeah.

[00:17:40] We're Not Fine: I don't. An

[00:17:42] Shanenn Bryant: Right.

[00:17:42] We're Not Fine: affair might be worse than sex to some people, right? Well put. I gotta tell you something. I think an emotional affair is much worse than getting off one time. 

[00:17:52] Shanenn Bryant: So, this was something that was new to me when I started dating my husband. You know, we all have exes. We all have a past. And I don't remember what it came up. Maybe I was contacted by an ex or something. I don't remember, but I said, I told him and he was like, Why did you do that?

[00:18:08] I don't want to know that kind of stuff. I trust you to handle it. Like I do not tell me that somebody's contacting me. Right. And I was like, what?

[00:18:20] We're Not Fine: is the most perfect example. It's really exactly what I'm saying.

[00:18:24] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:18:24] We're Not Fine: I know getting contacted by an ex is different than actually sleeping with someone in the past. It's just, but. The reality is I don't know that it's all that different. It's very much the same. It's like, and I love that your husband said, tell me things that are gonna hurt me and that I have to now figure out and feel burdened by and

[00:18:40] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah.

[00:18:50] We're Not Fine: up with the unpopular opinion. Okay, first of all, I agree. I think mine was unpopular. I love you, it sounds really secure and that sounds so healthy. However, I don't want people to assume that that's how everyone will feel about it, because what I don't like the idea of is now, and Shanenn, I feel like it worked out great for you and your relationship, I'm sure, but the idea is, Don't you want to share this with your spouse and don't you want your spouse to kind of align with you and like Gossip and like it's a fun.

[00:19:26] It's like if you're thinking about spouse as a best friend. Okay, wait, wait, let me finish Let me finish. Do I want to gossip and yes. Yeah. Okay. No, my favorite thing is when husband will just be like, Oh my god, you'll never guess, like, this person reached out to me, and this is the person that blah blah blah, and we've been together for 298 years. And so, I know all the cast of characters, I feel very secure, but now I feel like we're aligned in being like, Oh, wow. And then what happened? And then what? And then what did you do? It's not like I don't trust him to handle it, but it's like, if that happened to my best friend, I'd want to know. And it, it makes the conversations like alive and fresh.

[00:20:09] I want to say too. And Shanenn, this might've been the case for you. Like, is it something you want them to know? Like, is that for you as well? And that would be okay. That's a good question. And if

[00:20:19] Shanenn Bryant: Well, yeah,

[00:20:20] We're Not Fine: go ahead, please.

[00:20:21] Shanenn Bryant: no, I think that is, and that's what I was going to bring up is. just because that worked in that situation doesn't mean it's going to work or should work for your relationship. I do think it's like back to have that conversation. I think it's a great conversation to have in the beginning to say, Hey, do you want to know this information?

[00:20:40] Do you want to hear about this? So that you both know that I now know it. From then on out. Okay, that's not a thing. Now, what I will say though is sometimes I'm like, well,

[00:20:55] Shanenn Bryant: but I want to say, but I want to tell you.

[00:20:58] We're Not Fine: But Shanenn, there's two other pieces of the, actually three other pieces of this. The funny thing is, having worked with you before, know you well enough to know that because you think the way that you do and because you are vigilant about these particular issues and you're sensitive to them and you've been hurt by them, I think that's why your husband trusts you. Like I

[00:21:17] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. Right.

[00:21:19] We're Not Fine: I think I would actually say because you are that person and because you think the way that you do. So I'd be like. You got this. I know that there's a problem. I know that you're handling it. However, you said something really important. If you need it for you, if, if it leads you to believe that then he's not going to tell you the same stuff that you would like to know on the other side, that's the conversation to have. You could say to him, I appreciate that, you know, I'm trusting it, but I just want to let you know that if you have something like this happen, and one of your exes contacts you, I do want to know.

[00:21:47] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah, well, and thank you for bringing that up because that is the difference of going from This like morbid jealousy to being more secure because you better believe at that time years ago I was like, Well, hang on cuz I do want to know if that happens to you Today I would say maybe I don't want to be all rattled by that if you're, if, like, if it's just a thing, you know, just a, just as somebody reached out or something, um, hard to say, you know, cause then if I found it somehow, I might go back to my original, like,

[00:22:22] We're Not Fine: Well,

[00:22:23] Shanenn Bryant: right?

[00:22:29] We're Not Fine: if someone finds out about it years later, that is going to be relationship destroying anyway, and then don't you kind of feel like you're running away? From that secret forever. And I've really had both occur. I have another client who'd Paying 10. Um, I did have some I did have a person who did one time, it was never going to happen again. He did not know who that person was. It was on a work trip. didn't even know this person's name and he decided to tell his spouse. it did result in a crap load of distrust and almost punishment and consequence. And I look at it, and I'm like, if you needed to do that, and you're willing to accept that consequence, and you, you, you are working on it now, he's doing great with it, by the way, he's recovering well, but he had to really, really redeem himself, and it took years. Do I think that was the best use of that time?

[00:23:24] I don't know. But he felt an important, and that's why, Shanenn, what you said, by the way, I want to go back to like, if you saw something on his phone, all you have to do is say, so I know we have this agreement, I want to check in with you, I saw this on your phone, And I bet your husband would say, so we kind of agreed.

[00:23:40] I don't, I didn't respond as you see, I didn't text that person back. Um, and I'll tell you something, Shanenn, I have one of my exes that I broke up with 12 years ago. every three to six months, I get a text message from that person it's just feels so fucking stalking. It's crazy, but I just ignore it.

[00:23:58] And I block the new number that that person is texting me from. 

[00:24:02] Shanenn Bryant: gosh.

[00:24:02] We're Not Fine: would I have to tell somebody I told you. Because if we, because I'm your pod spouse. Yeah. And because if for whatever reason he showed up at an event, Doug is like, I

[00:24:14] Shanenn Bryant: Oh

[00:24:17] We're Not Fine: And I just want to let you know, cause you might be right next to me. So, hide your children.

[00:24:23] Shanenn Bryant: my gosh.

[00:24:24] We're Not Fine: not entirely safe to be honest. And so, I don't know what he would do. And so

[00:24:28] Shanenn Bryant: Right.

[00:24:28] We're Not Fine: of it. I do let the people know that I need to, that, that, because we were,

[00:24:32] Shanenn Bryant: Mm hmm.

[00:24:33] We're Not Fine: so, I mean, I'm still here. I know. Should I be? Did you see him at your house though? Yes. Several times.

[00:24:39] I did want to say one thing about transparency, though, in like what I was loving what Doug was saying, but then there's the question of if you are feeling insecure, even though you completely, like you have faith that your partner handles these things well, how do

[00:24:58] Shanenn Bryant: Mm hmm.

[00:24:59] We're Not Fine: If your partner is saying like, I love the way you are in the world and I know you're going to handle it well, but I just like, I noticed this on your phone.

[00:25:07] Can we check in about it? I don't think that should be a fight at all. I think that the partner should be like, totally. I mean, we decided that we weren't going to tell each other this stuff, but do you want to see how I responded? Cause that, Oh

[00:25:21] We're Not Fine: transparency would be so reassuring to just be like, okay, yeah, I still love the way you're showing up.

[00:25:29] We're Not Fine: It's interesting, and it's not just about It's not just about, I don't know, an ex getting in touch with you or, or whatnot. And boy did we, I knew this was going to happen, Shanenn. Uh, we're not even going to get through these questions.

[00:25:40] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah, we're, we've got, we're at, we're still on our first question. I love it. It's amazing. I love it.

[00:25:46] We're Not Fine: But you know, everyone is different. And this is where we kind of started out this conversation. I sometimes, if I have contact with somebody that one of my friends is connected to, and I want them to know that I've got their back, And they can trust me. I might take a, I have done this recently. I took a screenshot of my interaction with someone.

[00:26:04] I said, I just want you to know that this happened. I love that.

[00:26:08] We're Not Fine: And I, and, and by the way, my buddy was like, okay, I know you have my back. Because it's forthcoming. It's like proactively transparent. Yeah. And that person can read it if they want to, and they don't have to read it. I just want you to know I've got your back

[00:26:22] Shanenn Bryant: Right.

[00:26:23] We're Not Fine: on that by the way.

[00:26:23] And it's interesting that we're having this conversation because Doug is somebody who has a history of betrayal in my family of origin. Trust is a massive thing to me, and I am so lucky to have a number of people in my life that I can actually trust a hundred percent. I don't have any question that all of my friends in my inner circle have my back. 

[00:26:41] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:26:41] We're Not Fine: So, but you gain that. And Shanenn, when you talk about like, you wouldn't need to know your husband's. Contact from the ex or whatnot at this point.

[00:26:50] We're Not Fine: Like what a beautiful security. That is

[00:26:53] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it does, it just goes back to again, like the importance of having that conversation so that if you do see it, you're not freaked out. You can then immediately go, Oh, well, they probably didn't share it because this is, you know, our relationship agreement. Um, But I am curious about it, so maybe I'll ask, or maybe I won't.

[00:27:14] Who knows? But I think that's important to have that conversation. Um, okay. Question number two, um, but this is a great one, I think. Is it okay? If my partner likes other, this is from the woman's point of view, okay, likes other women's barely dressed posts. Because this comes up a lot. Like, they, they are feeling a bit of, um, a bit of betrayal that like, why are you liking this person who's barely dressed?

[00:27:51] What's the reason? What's the point? Why are you giving them attention?

[00:27:55] We're Not Fine: I'm gonna say not okay. I'm gonna say it's totally okay to look, it's totally okay to be turned on, it's okay to watch porn, it's okay to masturbate, it's okay to fantasize.

[00:28:08] Shanenn Bryant: She said it.

[00:28:09] We're Not Fine: But it's not okay to be publicly interacting with other, like, sexual people like, it's scantily clad. People online, unless that's the structure of your relationship and have, uh, you know, not even ethically non monogamous, but if that's a part of how you and

[00:28:37] We're Not Fine: are turned on and that's how you get off and you're both looking at attractive people together, or if it's okay, it's okay, but I would say, why would you look?

[00:28:48] It is betrayal. Like, why are you, you can be looking all you want, but is it taking away from our relationship? Are you engaging sexually or

[00:29:00] Shanenn Bryant: Mm hmm.

[00:29:01] We're Not Fine: loving someone else being naked on a public forum? I don't, I don't like it. Here's what I would say about this. There's so much that I want to say as, as Your listeners might now anticipate.

[00:29:11] I'm going to give you 10 seconds. Which, by the way, I

[00:29:13] Shanenn Bryant: Ha ha ha ha ha Oh,

[00:29:18] We're Not Fine: piece, please write to us because we'll, we'll address it. But anyway, and they'll write to you. Here's what I want to say about this, Shanenn.

[00:29:23] It is about the agreement. That was my first opinion. Like, is the agreement that you get to go on social media and do this? I'm not a huge social media person, but I am on Instagram. Um, as one of our producers recommended, I'd be on some kind of platform. I will tell you, and I don't know how exactly it happened, but if you look at suggestions for me, there's a lot of really, really hunky dudes with barely, oh my God, man can cooks. Are you saying that your algorithm is just completely out of nowhere? Yeah, I don't know where it came from. It was

[00:29:55] Shanenn Bryant: that's such a good question because that's what they're going to say. Wait a second.

[00:29:59] We're Not Fine: you're going

[00:30:00] Shanenn Bryant: no, I'm sorry. You're on the wrong end again of this.

[00:30:04] We're Not Fine: experience.

[00:30:06] Shanenn Bryant: Not wrong end. There is no right or wrong. We said that. But what I was going to say is, what I was going to say is, I think that is what, because we've all heard like, oh the algorithm, it's based on what you're looking at, it's based on what you like, da da da da da.

[00:30:20] And so I think that's where they're getting this. So now you've got hunky men that are cooking. One might say you've been looking at hunky men cooking.

[00:30:28] We're Not Fine: I have. One in particular. However, here's the thing about it. I also want to say that we're all human. And one of the things I think we don't do well in our culture is allow humanness.

[00:30:40] Shanenn Bryant: Yes.

[00:30:40] We're Not Fine: Like I will tell

[00:30:41] Shanenn Bryant: It's so good.

[00:30:43] We're Not Fine: right? Like there's no question that all of your listeners would recognize some hot person walking down the street. And

[00:30:50] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:30:50] We're Not Fine: Oh, I didn't notice him because I'm married. is not very human and not honest. And it's also turning off your sensuality and your sexuality. Thank you. Of 

[00:31:00] Shanenn Bryant: Mm hmm.

[00:31:00] We're Not Fine: look at this and I think we are all human, so allow some humanness about this. However, I want to go back to the real question here about, like, is it okay if you believe that?

[00:31:09] And I have had couples come in where the guy had porn on his computer at one point. She saw it and she said, he's cheating. And I said, you get to define cheating. I don't get to define cheating. I don't think that's cheating. Because, frankly, I don't know how porn doesn't show up on someone's screen at some point because of the world that we live in, um, and I'm barely on any of it.

[00:31:27] And also, that would mean that me watching Outlander is cheating. Well, you talk about Outlander as if it's cheating, because you talk about, I don't even know who's on there, but it is. Oh, Shan! Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:31:37] Shanenn! 

[00:31:38] Shanenn Bryant: No, I!

[00:31:40] We're Not Fine: But by the way, that's kind of, by the way, I think that's attractive. Like, just think there's something kind of enjoyable about that person.

[00:31:46] And this is what I don't like about this question from the perspective of it's a secret. I don't like that. If it's an open conversation, like I just want you to know that there are some people on Instagram in these tight clothes. Look at this woman. And if your

[00:32:00] Shanenn Bryant: Right.

[00:32:01] We're Not Fine: that person to you, you're going to say, okay, no, I'm feeling a little bit insecure about that. She's super hot. You, you do that to me all the time. I do. Well, but it's a little different with us. Is it?

[00:32:13] Shanenn Bryant: Well, sure.

[00:32:14] We're Not Fine: Yes.

[00:32:14] Shanenn Bryant: think, right? 

[00:32:15] We're Not Fine: a joke. I feel

[00:32:16] Shanenn Bryant: Oh, I was like, I

[00:32:17] We're Not Fine: some

[00:32:17] Shanenn Bryant: so.

[00:32:18] We're Not Fine: head, but I'm pretty sure it's different. We, we joked a little bit about pretending to be a couple. Oh yeah. You just did that today, by the way. Well, I was just gonna say the, not totally straight. You're not totally gay. We did have that conversation. That math. Okay. I'm kidding. So, here's the thing, Shanenn. Like, I think I'm not big on secrecy in any way, shape or form. I would love

[00:32:39] Shanenn Bryant: Hmm.

[00:32:39] We're Not Fine: person to tell their spouse, just so you know, I do, I'm on Instagram or I'm on whatever,

[00:32:45] Shanenn Bryant: Right.

[00:32:45] We're Not Fine: I tend to see these pictures.

[00:32:47] How do you feel about me liking some of these shots? Because these women have taken care of their bodies and they're going extra, the extra effort to be aesthetically beautiful. Doug, I hate that. But I also find you the most attractive. Why do you hate that? An honest conversation about what you're experiencing? I just wanted to let you know that I spend a fair amount of my time on the toilet looking at these naked women. And look at these buoyant breasts. You too? And, uh, yeah, no! I think that's about you and your own insecurity. I like if someone were to, if my husband were to come up and say, to me and be like, I'd like to show you some of the women on Instagram that I'm liking. Tall with short blonde hair. So, I think no secrecy is a good thing. transparency is what I'm thinking.

[00:33:44] Shanenn Bryant: Okay, I am so glad you guys aren't an actual real couple because I feel like this might have started like something at home on this conversation of battle at home.

[00:33:53] We're Not Fine: Oh, it will. We're gonna know. I mean, that's what I actually showed her a picture of somebody That I know and you're like, she is hot. I'd say that. I mean, I Rob, too. He'll show me people, or we'll look at somebody in public and oh, yeah, Rob will be like, oh my gosh She's so stunning and I'm like, she is so stunning.

[00:34:12] But I also feel very secure. I know. But if, okay, but it feels different because that feels like something organic is happening in real life. And also, we've had 28 years together for me to know, like he's, the guy's not leaving me for this person that is serving us wine. I mean, if he does, I'll probably join him. I mean, I'm not like, I don't know, I'm not worried about it, but if it was like, I'd like to show you. These girls on Instagram I find really attractive. That feels different. But that's a little, come on though. You're, you're, this is the thing about it is you just said, if he said, look at that hot person.

[00:34:51] Yeah. I don't know that it's that different, but I'm also not a social media person. So, I don't even know what liking someone would do. I don't think that person would be like, hey, I saw that you liked me. Do you want to go on a date? Well, okay. Well, two things. One thing is if you are friends with like, if I'm friends with you.

[00:35:10] Yeah. On. Social media. And then I look at a post of scantily clad men with pugs that are cooking. I will see Douglas L. Jensen liked this post. And I'll be like that horny bastard. I actually do

[00:35:31] Shanenn Bryant: Right.

[00:35:32] We're Not Fine: to this guy and say that you make my day. It's so cute.

[00:35:36] Shanenn Bryant: that is sort of it. I think it's maybe the idea of it outwardly facing. Like, you know what I mean? Where it's like, it's out there that my husband or my boyfriend or my wife or whomever, like, people can see that they're doing this thing. Maybe, you know, that potentially, I know it's a but it does cause tension in some relationships, and so I think maybe it's the outwardly facing thing where probably more women than men take it offensive or that, in disrespect in some way.

[00:36:13] We're Not Fine: Yeah, well you're having sort of a secret sexual interaction. It's not cheating by any means. It's not a sexual interaction either. It is putting your neon sign on that you're open for sexual interaction. Wow. It's true. So, I think that's hyperbolic. I think, I think, and I could be wrong. I'm attracted to you.

[00:36:38] So what I, or you like what they're doing. Which is being naked. I don't think it says naked. They're pretty naked. Okay.

[00:36:47] Shanenn Bryant: It says, uh, barely dressed. Barely dressed. Scantily clothed. Right?

[00:36:52] We're Not Fine: what you're doing. Shanenn, my guess is that you would appreciate a woman who takes care of her appearance and might even have a hairstyle that you appreciate or how she's Presenting herself like this is what I believe. What are they called? Um, influencers

[00:37:08] Shanenn Bryant: Mm hmm.

[00:37:09] We're Not Fine: they're doing that for a reason.

[00:37:11] Is it, is it necessarily cheating? Is it necessarily inviting that person to like engage sexually? If that happens, it's a whole different ballgame. But I think liking aesthetic, I do that to women, by the way, I will like some women who I sat next to a beautiful, beautiful person on the plane to L. A. one day, and I, she wanted to connect on Instagram, so I did, and I looked at her picture, and I'm like, oh, goodness.

[00:37:35] Okay. But it's also different because you're not in a relationship, and she's a woman. Even if you were in exclusive relationship, which you wouldn't be, but if you were, it wouldn't be a big deal for you to like naked women. Unless that dude was insecure, that woman that I was with, I don't know, right?

[00:37:54] But that's part of the agreement of the

[00:37:56] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah,

[00:37:57] We're Not Fine: you know, Shanann, you pointed out something beautiful again about your own relationship. You have grown in your security; you have grown in your trust of him. and I remember the last podcast we did together where you raised up some questions like, who you looking at, right?

[00:38:09] This is part of working beyond that. We're all human. And I think one of the things I struggle with again, is that if we're on social media and any human being on the planet says, I quickly turned my head, I'm not at all looking at other people. I call bullshit. So, I think

[00:38:24] Shanenn Bryant: yeah,

[00:38:25] We're Not Fine: interaction about this and really allowing. Honesty and integrity. It does not mean anything. I will say, I'm just going to go specific to the question. I'm going to go, most of the time, it's going to be an issue to like things. Looking is different than liking something. And I think that's the big differentiation. might say,

[00:38:43] Shanenn Bryant: okay.

[00:38:44] We're Not Fine: people not to like things if it causes disruption.

[00:38:46] Shanenn Bryant: Just don't click, just don't push the heart, right? Just don't push the heart.

[00:38:52] We're Not Fine: Is it a heart? If you're like,

[00:38:54] Shanenn Bryant: or thumbs up or whatever. Yeah,

[00:38:56] We're Not Fine: you're turned on, awesome. Go. To your partner and get it started. Use that, like, increased hot sexuality. Like, go bring it where it belongs. We're not going to be popular on Shanenn’s.

[00:39:17] Shanenn Bryant: I love it.

[00:39:18] We're Not Fine: like, why would you bring those people? Shanenn’s going to lose like half of

[00:39:23] Shanenn Bryant: Do you know the emails that I am gonna give after this? No, I think this is great because and I am you know, that is sort of how we look at it. I have to joke about it. That's just my nature of how to um, you know when you are able to grow through things It's like, okay, we can poke fun. If we can't have fun and make light sometimes about serious things, you know, we just gotta lighten the mood sometimes.

[00:39:52] We're Not Fine: of really love that. And I also think that life is not black and white. And as human beings, we're not black

[00:39:56] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:39:57] We're Not Fine: And as time goes on in our lives, we continuously evolve and change and have different things. And I always tell people, know, you got to keep communicating and letting, letting the other person know what you need.

[00:40:07] Now you might come up with a new. that you want to do. I do have a lot of couples who have tried opening up their relationships, straight and gay relationships. And so, I mean, I think there's a real need to be open to that. And all of us have the responsibility to manage our nervous system about that. Hear what our partner is saying, because if we tell them at any point, do not tell me what's going on, that secrecy is going to be hazardous and

[00:40:30] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:40:30] We're Not Fine: that relationship. So, this is about being honest and transparent and if, if you're liking, because you don't know really the impact, by the way, that would be me, like liking shit that I don't even know that I'm liking. Most of the time he thinks he's shopping for groceries on Instagram. Yeah, I'm usually, I think I'm on Instagram and I'm buying all of those people. I'd like to buy two pugs and one naked man. Like the guy that I watch when he flexes and breaks an egg with his bicep, I think I'm buying eggs. But

[00:40:55] Shanenn Bryant: One, one guy cooking, right? One.

[00:40:58] We're Not Fine: algorithm is totally a coincidence. Yeah.

[00:41:01] Shanenn Bryant: Uh huh. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah. Here, here's maybe the last one. We'll see. I don't know.

[00:41:10] We're Not Fine: So, we're

[00:41:11] Shanenn Bryant: Um, no, I love it. It's great. Is it okay for my partner to flirt with people at work?

[00:41:22] We're Not Fine: Oh.

[00:41:23] Shanenn Bryant: Now you two might be the wrong people to ask.

[00:41:28] We're Not Fine: We're already, we're going to get it.

[00:41:30] Shanenn Bryant: Right.

[00:41:31] We're Not Fine: cancelled. Like infamous. But here's the thing. This is about agreements, right?

[00:41:35] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:41:35] We're Not Fine: if I were in a monogamous, exclusive relationship, 100 percent please don't, right? Whereas if I'm in a, um, A poly relationship, an ethically non

[00:41:45] Shanenn Bryant: Mm hmm.

[00:41:46] We're Not Fine: which is everybody who watches We're Not Fine knows, is likely to be the way that I would go because I'm kind of done with my kids and my, and I like some fun, and I love love.  It's a beautiful thing. So, I would say if I'm with somebody, for example, if I'm with a dude who's bisexual and he wants to flirt with women at work, have at it. It's open, but it's the agreement of our relationship. But and also could maybe pursue a relationship with the woman, you would still feel like, have at it?

[00:42:15] Yeah. But also, like ethical non monogamy and not being in An exclusive relationship is your brand and your vibe. It is my vibe and my brand. But Shanenn, I think what your question is if you're in this monogamous relationship, is it okay to flirt with coworkers?

[00:42:33] Shanenn Bryant: Mm

[00:42:34] We're Not Fine: not. Like that's not the agreement of your relationship.

[00:42:38] That's not the covenant of your or commitment that you've made. So

[00:42:42] Shanenn Bryant: hmm.

[00:42:43] We're Not Fine: to a relationship, that flirtatious is, flirtatiousness is a sliding, slippery slope. Yes. I would

[00:42:49] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:42:50] We're Not Fine: it is not okay. And travel, for sure not. And by the way, travel is where a lot of these infidelity situations happen.

[00:42:56] Yes, work trips. And so, by the way, just really know that your, your partners, not necessarily if they travel for work, cheating, but have a conversation about it. Do you ever get tempted? Is it hard when I'm not around and you're gone for a week to Hong Kong? Do you feel like doing something?

[00:43:10] Shanenn Bryant: Literally and figuratively. I don't know. Specifically.

[00:43:17] We're Not Fine: absolutely not. If you're in a relationship with someone, don't flirt with other people. Flirt is a really strong word, so. Yeah, and I, I mean, I, going to be shocked by this everyone, but I literally could not agree with you more. Everything that he said, something's wrong, but it's the, I still always think about like, are you presenting yourself as a happily married or a person who's secure and happy in your relationship? Or are you presenting as somebody who's neon sign is like flashing open for business. So, if you're friendly, Is very different than if you're flirty and flirty is I'm open for business. I would be open to this going further than just a workplace acquaintance, right? But the travel, I feel like A, you have to trust your partner and the way they are in the world.

[00:44:15] Like when the cat's away, right? Or when the goose is away. When the cat's away, the mice will play. Yeah. Not the gander. Never mind. You understand.

[00:44:24] Shanenn Bryant: a whole, that's a different one. Yep, the goose and the gander.

[00:44:27] We're Not Fine: that particular. Horses. the understanding is first of all, you have to trust who your partner is when they're not with you. And if they're trashed, those are the two pieces. Because

[00:44:39] Shanenn Bryant: Mm,

[00:44:40] We're Not Fine: If they're drunk, there's a much higher chance that they are uninhibited and they might act in a way that isn't in alignment with who they wanna be. So yeah, these conversations are crucial. And as a relationship therapist, I'm just gonna say too, that there's no question there's something going on if you're flirting with a coworker. you're

[00:45:01] Shanenn Bryant: mm,

[00:45:01] We're Not Fine: don't have that boundary in place. There's something else going on in your relationship that you need to address. Oh, like unmet needs in your relationship? Well, not necessarily. Just if you've lost interest, if you're getting your needs not met, it can be a number of things. If you're angry, resentful towards something.

[00:45:16] Shanenn Bryant: right,

[00:45:17] We're Not Fine: think there's a lot of different reasons, uh, to believe that that is something. And I, I would hope that the person who finds themselves flirting outside of the relationship can go back to their spouse and say, I need to let you know there's something missing for me. I

[00:45:29] Shanenn Bryant: right.

[00:45:30] We're Not Fine: to change here.

[00:45:30] And really what we know is that relationships take work. So, you have to continuously work. You have to continuously talk with your partner all the time for the rest of your life about everything. If you're

[00:45:41] Shanenn Bryant: Mm hmm.

[00:45:42] We're Not Fine: relationship to keep it going. I have one

[00:45:44] Shanenn Bryant: Okay, well this is, oh, sorry. I was going to say this is a little off topic, but I have two therapists here, so of course I'm going to ask.

[00:45:50] We're Not Fine: at it.

[00:45:50] Shanenn Bryant: Why do you think that people struggle so badly to have that conversation? Like why is it so hard for people to come back and go, okay, you know what, I'm like, I'm feeling a little like I'm on a slippery slope here.

[00:46:04] What can we do?

[00:46:05] We're Not Fine: My number one answer would be that they're avoiding conflict. They're avoiding not hurting their partner. They're avoiding bringing up a topic that they don't know where it's going to go. So, I'm going to say avoidance is what I experienced as the number one issue. I think people are afraid to bring up topics that are difficult to talk about. And screw that! We have to get over ourselves. If we want enduring, strong relationships, you have to be able to communicate and open up about everything and anything. So, when you're experiencing that, I think Shanenn, I would say, and I, I'm curious what you think, but I, I think avoidance. I think people don't want to say, I'm not getting my needs met because what if the person says, I'm doing the best I can. I don't like doing that to you. not compatible sexually. The relationship might come to an end though. So, I think fear is the biggest factor here. Well, and I think

[00:46:51] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah,

[00:46:52] We're Not Fine: if it's in advance of anyone cheating on anyone, even just to say before it is a reality of like, this is a real problem. I feel like it's so rare for someone to come to the table and say, I've been fantasizing, or I've been flirting, right?

[00:47:09] It's almost like I'm going to start a problem that wasn't. However, I completely agree with Doug that, Oh, it's a problem. And this is like how wonderful that you're catching it before it's a problem. And if you can connect around it, then you're in it together. You can be on the same side of like, let's talk about what's not working.

[00:47:29] But I did want to say the idea of like an unmet need or who feels like something's not working here. It doesn't always mean that you as the partner are not giving them what they

[00:47:44] Shanenn Bryant: Hmm.

[00:47:45] We're Not Fine: might also be a legit problem. I mean, what they say is most of the people that cheat are insecure extroverts. So, there might be this bottomless pit of need for external validation. That doesn't mean that you're not beautiful enough

[00:48:03] Shanenn Bryant: Right.

[00:48:04] We're Not Fine: smart enough. You're not handsome enough. What it means is person is feeling a lot of unmet needs about to see their own desirability, attractiveness in the eyes of others or else they don't feel like enough. 

[00:48:23] Shanenn Bryant: that partner could tell you a hundred times, like, you're attractive I'm, you know, I'm attracted to you, I love you, like, all of that stuff, and if you, when you have those insecurities, that's, you're not absorbing that necessarily. So, to your point, like, doesn't mean that the partner's not doing something they should be doing, could be that that person just insecure, they're not going to absorb it anyway.

[00:48:46] We're Not Fine: Well, and I don't know. I, I, I think that a lot of the affairs that I've worked with are not about that. They're about

[00:48:52] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:48:53] We're Not Fine: to ask for what you need to talk about what you think and feel, and to talk openly and honestly about the issues in your relationship. That feels like the predominant thing that I experienced.

[00:49:02] I don't have a lot of people who are doing it just for affirmation. I, I have a lot. I saw people. I think so. I mean, I think a lot of professional people that I work with, both men and women. They have a lot going on. They have a lot going for them. Some, you know, not to say that that's necessarily the way to happiness, but for these people, they're not necessarily needing more affirmation. They're just not able to ask for what they need and get it. And I think Shanenn, this brings up point two, which is, or part B of that conversation, which is if you're very clear, this is what I need and your partner says, I can't give it. That's what I mean by avoidance. I think people are afraid that they're not going to get what they need even when they ask for it. And then what do you do? Do you

[00:49:41] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:49:41] We're Not Fine: in this mediocre relationship

[00:49:43] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:49:44] We're Not Fine: Right? So that's, that's what I think the real issue is in most of my cases.

[00:49:49] Shanenn Bryant: So then maybe it makes more sense, right, for this person who is like, oh, I'm feeling tempted. I'm feeling this way. Like, go maybe seek out what's going on with you before we bring your partner into this whole deal and get them all nervous and afraid that something's going to happen. Like, let's see what's going on with you first.

[00:50:07] We're Not Fine: Own your own stuff and be self-aware. Notice how something that isn't a problem yet might become a problem, and we would avoid 90 percent of issues in relationships. I 100 percent think so as well. And it may be that the relationship is not working. I mean, there are times that relationships just don't endure and don't work.

[00:50:26] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:50:27] We're Not Fine: But this is about ongoing communication and that's why whatever's going on that leads to that flirtatiousness has to be addressed, not only within the person that is doing it and understand it. That's what I, you know, going back to the cheating thing, like I grilled my client. Why did you do it? Do you understand it?

[00:50:41] Are you in any way likely to do it again? Because if you do, yeah, you have to bring it up in your relationship. But, you know, that's where the work is on that individual work. So, Shanenn, you're right. Like, can you go to your own work, do your own therapy, figure out why it is that you are in that situation. And it might be that the relationship is no longer giving you what you need. That might be real, too. It might be real. So, 

[00:51:04] Shanenn Bryant: Sure. 

[00:51:05] We're Not Fine: relationships don't work as much That's a painful thing.

[00:51:09] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:51:10] We're Not Fine: concept that I, I brought up to my daughter who works in Hollywood, you know, we should do a show about like 10-year duration of all relationships.

[00:51:18] And at 10 years, you either stay in it or you don't.

[00:51:21] Shanenn Bryant: Mm hmm.

[00:51:22] We're Not Fine: interesting concept because no, no harm, no foul, because I just am horrified, but we do what we do with divorce and kids and all the stuff that happens

[00:51:30] Shanenn Bryant: Yes.

[00:51:32] We're Not Fine: in this United States of ours.

[00:51:34] Shanenn Bryant: So, like a longer version of 90 Day Fiancé, except like you gotta say

[00:51:38] We're Not Fine: makes me so angry. I can't even tell you. I cannot watch it. It makes me, that is so taking advantage of people. It drives me nuts. Reality TV. Yeah,

[00:51:49] Shanenn Bryant: Just in general. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, I knew this was going to be a blast and I; we could go forever on and on and on. I will not do that to the two of you. I know you have. So many other things to do today. I appreciate you both coming on here. We're, uh, the go, people are going to be flocking to the podcast for sure.

[00:52:12] To get more of the two of you. We're not fine podcast. Where else? Doug, you're on social media now. So where should they, where should they go to find both of you? Cause Doug, you, where where did they go to find Doug? Mm hmm.

[00:52:28] We're Not Fine: Please, please find me. You know what's funny about that, Shannon? I actually don't know what my Instagram address is, but I do. She does I do guys. Okay, so yes, we are on the social. So, on Instagram, it's Douglas L. Jensen with an EN, and I'm DR Talia Jackson, T-A-L-I-A, J-A-C-K-S-O-N. We're also, we are not fine pod. But also, we're on YouTube, which is really fun. We're not fine. We're on TikTok right now until it's fanned, I guess. I don't

[00:53:01] Shanenn Bryant: For a couple days. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:53:03] We're Not Fine: days, you could find us on TikTok. And if you have anything from this episode or any other questions you have for us, our brand is about mental health and relationships.

[00:53:11] Find us at we're not fine dot com. We have a place where you can submit any questions whatsoever. We welcome anything and everything, even if you don't like what we're saying. Like, I think that's the conversation that we as

[00:53:22] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah.

[00:53:22] We're Not Fine: to have. And I'm so excited to think that your people, Shanenn, are going to also probably have a lot of thoughts and feelings about this episode. And that they might want to comment or engage. And we already love you and we welcome that. 

[00:53:37] Shanenn Bryant: Thank you guys so much. I knew it would be a blast. And see there, your day has been made better for sure.

[00:53:44] We're Not Fine: Yay!

[00:53:44] Shanenn Bryant: Thank you guys for being on Top Self. Yeah. Or they're just really pissed, and we're all pissed at Doug. That's what, that's what's happening. Well,

[00:53:52] We're Not Fine: alive!

[00:53:52] Shanenn Bryant: kidding.

[00:53:53] We're Not Fine: alive!

[00:53:54] Shanenn Bryant: No, that's right.

[00:53:56] That's right. No. Thank you.

[00:53:59] We're Not Fine: Take care.

[00:54:00] Shanenn Bryant: Bye.