Trust, Communicating, and Couples Therapy w/ Dr. Bruce Chalmer Ep 64

[00:00:00] Shanenn Bryant: Welcome back to another episode of Top Self. I'm your host, Shanenn Bryant. I have the couples therapists of all couples therapists, right. I have Bruce Chalmer with me today and he's gonna provide us some very interesting wisdom he has learned through his years of couples therapy and outside of couples’ therapy.

[00:00:22] Shanenn Bryant: You also have a podcast of your own that you do with your wife called Couples Therapy in Seven Words. I was just on it recently. Great podcast. So thank you for doing that and welcome Bruce.

[00:00:34] Bruce Chalmer: Well, thank you. It's delightful to be here. It was great to have you on our show, and I'm happy to return the favor.

[00:00:39] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. Well, I'm excited to have you here I'm gonna go right out of the gate though, because I know that there are many couples where there might be one partner or the other that want to go to couples therapy. But the other is hesitant. 

[00:00:56] Shanenn Bryant: So, before we talk about changes that we can make in couples therapy, how do we get our partner to go if they don't wanna go?

[00:01:04] Bruce Chalmer: You know, it's funny you asked me that question. I actually have a video. It is oriented toward a particular gender, which is the usual one. It's "how do you get your reluctant guy to go to therapy?" The basic idea there, and this would apply in either gender, either, either way you go, whatever gender. Um, the basic idea is you have to understand that if somebody is reluctant to go to therapy, they almost certainly have very good reason for it. Uh, typically it's fear and you know, the, the reason I addressed it somewhat whimsically, but I, but I meant it seriously.

[00:01:35] Bruce Chalmer: The reason I addressed it when I was talking about guys, is we as men, you know, I'm, I'm a cisgendered, heterosexual guy, and we tend not to reveal, especially to our women partners that we're terrified of something. But typically, the reason a guy is resisting, you know, it's, it's usually not always, but usually a woman who wants to do it, usually a man who doesn't. And because guys don't like to talk about stuff, it's terrifying that, you know, if a woman approaches a guy and says, honey, we need to talk. Those are terrifying words to a guy. We don't say we're terrified. We will get, uh, you know, different ways. We'll get all logical. We'll say, well no, really, this is your problem.

[00:02:14] Bruce Chalmer: Uh, you know, you should work that out 'cause I'm not unhappy. You are. So, you should go. Or we will get angry, or we will, or we'll stonewall, or we'll do all kinds of things that aren't terribly helpful about that. And what I advise, again, usually the woman in that situation is to understand why he's resisting. You have to understand that again, he has probably a pretty valid basis for it. He's terrified. He won't tell you that he's terrified, but he's terrified. And the reason he's terrified is that if you go to couple's therapy, he is convinced, or certainly the possibility is there that the therapist will take your side, not his.

[00:02:50] Bruce Chalmer: Because therapy is, even though even those of us who are male therapists, you know, the, the assumption is, well, we're talking about all this emotional stuff, so we're thinking like women or we're, we're taking a woman's approach. Or, what'll happen is you'll discover that, oh. Uh, really this, marriage or partnership isn't gonna work, so you'll dump 'em.

[00:03:11] Bruce Chalmer: So, the guy's terrified that that's what's gonna happen. And he's not crazy to be terrified. And once you recognize that, and this again, broadening it from not just, uh, not just talking women to men, but in any direction, once you realize that your partner is afraid, probably for good reason, then you can actually hear each other. That's where a partner might well say, well, you know, you're actually hearing my misgivings. Maybe we've got something we can talk about here. If we can find someone who's not just going to, you know, sell us a bill of goods, but will actually listen to us, maybe we'll actually get somewhere.

[00:03:44] Bruce Chalmer: that it's that's, there's sort of the, that's a long answer to your question, but you have to understand why your partner has misgivings.

[00:03:52] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. There's some underlying fear there.

[00:03:54] Shanenn Bryant: Uh, and like you said, understandably so because, well, gosh, what are they gonna say and what's gonna be the outcome?

[00:04:00] Bruce Chalmer: Yep.

[00:04:01] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:04:02] Shanenn Bryant: Okay. Well while still on that topic of, starting to go to therapy or how we start to go to couples therapy, are there any questions that a couple should be asking as they're trying to find the right therapist?

[00:04:14] Shanenn Bryant: Or is that a thing? 'cause I hear a lot of times, you know, it's hard to get in or, you know, it takes a while. But I also, you know, its important right, that you connect with that therapist, both of you in that situation. Are there questions that we could be asking? I.

[00:04:29] Bruce Chalmer: You know, that is a great question. It is a, it's, of course a perfectly normal question to ask. Right. I have a, I actually wrote a section on that in, in my most recent book. It's not about communication. There isn't. I don't, I haven't got a good answer. There aren't a good set of questions you can ask because I think what happens, regardless of what you might ask and what you know, what the therapist might come up with in terms of a brief answer, you're not gonna know until you actually work with somebody and see does it seem to be working?

[00:04:57] Bruce Chalmer: Do they seem to be hearing what you're saying? Do you feel more alive based on the conversation rather than shut down? Uh, those are things, I don't know what questions you could ask that would tease that out except actually trying a session or, you or maybe several sessions, which I know that's frustrating. You know, it's like you'd like, it'd be nice if you could ask certain questions to sort of, you know, rule people out. But I, I don't know what they would be.

[00:05:20] Shanenn Bryant: Trial and error. 

[00:05:21] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:05:22] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. Well, I, and I think it's important for people to know that, if the first one doesn't work out, try another one and if that person clicks, but at least given them kind of the opportunity at least.

[00:05:34] Bruce Chalmer: Oh, yeah.

[00:05:34] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah. Um, so you kind of touched on a little bit of my next question, which we hear all the time. Oh, we need to go to couples therapy because we have bad communication.

[00:05:49] Shanenn Bryant: Our communication is off. You have a different opinion of what the problem might be.

[00:05:54] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah. You know,  when what you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You know, , I have my favorite way of thinking about this, and I apply it, you know, and it, it's sort of funny because it, I don't know what the percentage is. I haven't really counted, but I'm guessing three quarters of the time when I ask people, in the first session, like, you know, in effect what's bringing them there,

[00:06:16] Bruce Chalmer: they're gonna say, well, we need to communicate better. 

[00:06:17] Bruce Chalmer: It's not about communication for crying out loud, you know, why do I say it's not about communication? Well, people think they're having trouble communicating, and the vast majority of folks out there, and the vast majority of people I work with probably aren't cognitively impaired. That could cause communication problems, but they're not cognitively impaired.

[00:06:35] Bruce Chalmer: They're intelligent. They can follow what's going on. They're usually not on the autistic spectrum occasionally, but usually not. People on the spectrum occasionally do have communication problems because they might not be able to detect the emotional tone of what someone is saying, and that's a real communication problem. You know, they usually literally speak the same language, you know, and that, that, of course, if, if somebody, if two people literally do not speak the same language, well that's a communications problem, but that's not the case with most people who say they need to communicate better. 

[00:07:08] Bruce Chalmer: The problem isn't that they don't know how to communicate. They're communicating very effectively. The problem is what they're communicating. What they're communicating often is anger, mistrust. contempt, you know, a bunch of things that are not real helpful to communicate. Blame. Exactly. All of the above. So, when that's what they're communicating, they're still communicating it clearly. They don't need help communicating. They need help with what they're communicating. And

[00:07:34] Bruce Chalmer: that's not about talking about communication. That's about, well, what's going on? That you're communicating that, you know, why are you communicating mistrust? Why are you communicating fear?

[00:07:43] Bruce Chalmer: You know, you're effectively communicating things quite accurately, but the fact that you're communicating that is what you're having trouble within your relationship.

[00:07:51] Shanenn Bryant: Okay, so that might be a good starting point to what I was gonna ask you if, because you know what my podcast is about. I've been on your show. We've had some conversations; you have a little idea of what goes on in the mind of someone who is jealous and in that relationship and they're feeling really insecure.

[00:08:12] Shanenn Bryant: And typically, it is the other partner has had it, I mean, they're fed up, they're tired of one of being accused. Two, it's just the same questions over and over, and they're feeling, you know, their, their partner is showing them that they don't trust them, even if they haven't done anything to show that mistrust.

[00:08:33] Shanenn Bryant: So, if there were a couple that came into your office, one of them with this kind of morbid jealousy that we've been talking about. What would maybe be a first step? 

[00:08:43] Shanenn Bryant: you would take with that couple?

[00:08:45] Bruce Chalmer: Well, you know, my first disclaim disclaimer to put in there is, it would depend on the couple of course, but.

[00:08:52] Bruce Chalmer: where, where I would go in general is for people to understand where it's coming from. And that's a tricky one in the, in the sort of situation you're describing where, you know, some people are sort of at their wits end. It's like, you know, she or he or is so jealous and I am just having a hard time putting up with it. I would wanna somehow, if, if they wanna stay together, you know, which sometimes is a, a question in a situation like that, but if they wanna stay together, I would, I would wanna invite them to validate it, you know what I mean?

[00:09:22] Bruce Chalmer: It's like, well, okay. You know, it's something I learned from you actually, the notion that jealousy is in fact a solution to a problem. It is. It can also be highly problematic. Obviously, it could be toxic, but it can also be healthy. It can also be like, well, okay, your jealousy is indicating something.

[00:09:37] Bruce Chalmer: Let's, let's see if we can talk about it without freaking out, so that you can get a sense of where you're coming from

[00:09:44] Bruce Chalmer: and that's, that'll be the path forward. It tends not to be a path forward to say, it will go cold Turkey and stop checking the phone. I'm not saying you should not stop checking the phone.

[00:09:55] Bruce Chalmer: You should stop checking the phone, but.

[00:09:57] Bruce Chalmer: not the point. You know? The point is what's driving you to wanna check the phone?

[00:10:01] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, okay, so, uh, something you said to me that's been sticking with me since I did that interview with you, you know, sometimes just the simplest of things can make all the difference in the way that somebody looks at something. Right. And you said something that really stuck out to me that I thought, Hmm.

[00:10:22] Shanenn Bryant: That is one of those potentially like simple statements but change the way that someone thinks. So, you said you are married to a male, I assume, and I said yes. And you said, okay, so you're married to a heterosexual male who is then attracted to women. 

[00:10:40] Shanenn Bryant: And I said Yes. And you said, and you would want him to be, because that's how he was attracted to you.

[00:10:45] Bruce Chalmer: That's the, that's 

[00:10:46] Bruce Chalmer: the team you're playing for, right?

[00:10:48] Shanenn Bryant: Right, and, and so, um, even for me, who I have clients that I'm helping with, even that one kind of simple, thought of thinking about it a little bit differently, like. What else would they do? Right? What else would they be attracted to? So, I just wanted to thank you for that and I wanted to share it here as well.

[00:11:12] Shanenn Bryant: Um, in case people haven't been able to listen to your podcast to hear that, 'cause I think this is an important point that might hit home with people.

[00:11:20] Bruce Chalmer: Well, I appreciate that. You know, I never know, like in a situation like this or in a session, people will say, oh, you said this amazing thing.

[00:11:27] Bruce Chalmer: And there have been many times when people have said that, and I'm virtually certain I didn't say it. You know, they came up it. They're giving me credit, which is very generous, but I don't deserve it.

[00:11:38] Bruce Chalmer: You know, in this case, yes, I do remember saying that, but it's fascinating. I never know what's really gonna resonate with someone. Can I take that a little further? 'cause I think

[00:11:46] Bruce Chalmer: it's, there's something I, I enjoy pointing out about that. So not only is there reason to be glad if you know that your partner is attracted to the whole category that you are from, you know, that's

[00:11:57] Shanenn Bryant: Right. Right. 

[00:11:58] Bruce Chalmer: But then there's the phenomenon that, and especially true when you're talking about sex. You know, the, the notion of people being sexually alive, being able to be turned on doesn't have to immediately mean cheating. You know, it's like someone could find, oh, what a, what a sexy program. I just saw, you know, a story.

[00:12:18] Bruce Chalmer: For women, it's more often romance stories and for men it's more often porn, you know,

[00:12:22] Bruce Chalmer: but whatever. It may be something that stimulates him. And then he's, but, but if he's faithful to you, he's saying, oh my God, I have this wonderful woman I can have sex with. How cool is that? You can actually, perhaps be glad it is being turned on by the world that, and he can take it out on you in a lovely way.

[00:12:42] Bruce Chalmer: You can be turned on that way too. So you know when a couple is open to being sexually turned on by more than just each other.

[00:12:50] Shanenn Bryant: Right,

[00:12:50] Bruce Chalmer: And I'm talking about monogamous, faithful couples that can be good for a relationship. Not bad.

[00:12:57] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I think in our, in our minds where we live is, you know, it, when we struggle with it is, well, I don't want that. You know, what, what does that mean? they are turned on by someone else, what does that mean? You know, does that mean they want that person? Does that mean that they desire other people?

[00:13:15] Shanenn Bryant: I'm not doing it enough. You know, so that, that, those are the stories that start coming up when, when we think about that scenario.

[00:13:22] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah. And those, now you're, I'm not gonna mansplain to you, you being the expert on women in the conversation. Uh, that's what I hear from women, that particular one. Men. Men. It's not so much about, oh, who am I competing with? Meant it's more about, oh my God, she's rejecting me. You know, she won't let me in. But women, it's much more, is that right? Women, it's much more about, oh my God, if he's looking at those pictures and I'm not, I don't look like that.

[00:13:47] Bruce Chalmer: There must be something wrong with me.

[00:13:49] Bruce Chalmer: And men, men find that just absolutely mystifying. 'cause men are just thinking, no, no, you know, look at a naked woman, it turns me on.

[00:13:55] Bruce Chalmer: You know, we just, we don't think, we don't think in terms of that being unfaithful or you not literally having sex with anybody else. He's just getting turned on by an image. 'cause that's what happens with most men.

[00:14:07] Shanenn Bryant: And you are not doing the comparison that we're doing.  I assume that that is the case, or we hope that that's the case, right? You're not doing that comparison of, oh, this naked person versus my wife, naked.

[00:14:22] Bruce Chalmer: Exactly. No, and then of course that is the issue. One of the issues with porn. And, you know, and I worry about it, especially with young folks these days, says, the old fogy over here, what I mean, you know, I go back way before the internet. Well, you're not that old and you go back way before the internet.

[00:14:37] Bruce Chalmer: You know, the, the, um, young folks where that's what they're learning sex is, that can be seriously problematic because there are people who get trained so that they're only turned on by porn, not by actual people. And that can wreak havoc on a relationship. So I'm not trying to say porn is just fine, but uh, indeed. Most men, I think will tell you honestly, we're not comparing, that's not what it's about. They just, you know, men as a group, you know, I was gonna say heterosexual men, but I think that's true of gay men as well. Find images of their favorite, you know, their favorite category, sexually stimulating.

[00:15:12] Bruce Chalmer: So, it isn't, you know, you know, it's interesting, there's been, uh, research with women, some of it, I, I live in Vermont. I'm in Florida at the moment, but I live in Vermont in general. And, um, there's been research with women where they'll use a, uh, plethysmograph, which is for men, it's something that goes around the penis and just measures when the penis gets engorged. For women, in the vagina and measures when the vagina gets engorged.

[00:15:38] Bruce Chalmer: And there's research with women that shows that women being shown certain images will also engorge, just like men will, but it won't jive with their subjective assessment of how turned on they are. Whereas for men, those things are really well correlated, so a man's penis and a man's brain are pretty much lined up.

[00:15:57] Bruce Chalmer: You know, that's the joke about we have blood for both a brain and a penis, but not at the same time. You know, the man's penis gets going. It's, that's his brain at that moment. But for women, it's more complicated that women will show themselves physically, like the vagina is saying, oh, better get ready for sex. When the brain may be saying, oh my God, that's horrible.

[00:16:19] Shanenn Bryant: Really 

[00:16:20] Bruce Chalmer: and the, it was women researchers that were doing this. This wasn't like from, you know, the male gaze happening.

[00:16:25] Bruce Chalmer: Um, and it was fascinating. They were hypothesizing that, what women are looking for in sex is quite a bit more complex than what men are looking for.

[00:16:35] Bruce Chalmer: Men are just looking for admission. Women are looking for a relationship.

[00:16:39] Shanenn Bryant: mm-Hmm.

[00:16:40] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah. Well, it's, there's good evolutionary reason, you know, men and women are the way they are for good reason.

[00:16:45] Bruce Chalmer: It can be problematic. And Jealousy's a great example of that. You know, it's like there's good reason for jealousy, but also it can get toxic if it's.

[00:16:55] Shanenn Bryant: Mm-Hmm 

[00:16:55] Bruce Chalmer: it's too much at the wrong time.

[00:16:58] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah, certainly, certainly. Well, speaking of toxic, um, you talk about death spiral for passion. What is that? How does that happen? 

[00:17:09] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah. It's, it's a, uh, it's a normal process that, that sounds kind of dismal, doesn't it? It's like, yeah, a normal process is a death spiral. Well.

[00:17:15] Shanenn Bryant: Death spiral.

[00:17:16] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah, that sounds awful, but I'll, I'll tell you what I mean by that. It relates to the notion, one of my favorite topics is the difference between stability and intimacy. Those are both needs in a relationship. We need stability. Otherwise, everything, we're constantly freaking out and worrying about all the time. You know, our anxiety levels spiking like crazy, but we also need intimacy. And the chief skills of stability are all about keeping the anxiety level low. You know, you don't cheat. You show up. When you say you're gonna show up, you more or less tell the truth. You're more or less sober most of the time. You know, stuff like that. The chief skills of intimacy aren't at all about avoiding anxiety. They're actually about tolerating anxiety, and that's where that death spiral can come in.

[00:18:00] Bruce Chalmer: Because what happens when people get together and fall in love and. You know, make a life together and maybe have kids, which really ups the ante. Stability becomes of course, very, very important.

[00:18:13] Bruce Chalmer: And what happens is stability can get so important that people stop. Risking rocking the boat too much. So, they might not wanna issue a, a garden variety complaint.

[00:18:24] Bruce Chalmer: It's like, oh, I wish you would wipe down the counter after you've, you know, used the bathroom or whatever. You know, I wish you would do X, Y, or Z that you're not doing or not do X, Y, or Z that you are doing. And you know, that's not gonna be fun for your partner to hear. And if you've had some conversations that have kind of gone off the rails, then people will tend to avoid that. Well, avoiding that, it's not just about complaints. Other things that might raise anxiety is if you wanna say to your partner, you know, I've been wanting to try something different in our sex life, and I'm worried you're gonna think I'm weird. Or say to your partner, you know, I've been thinking I'd like us to move somewhere for a year or something, and I'm worried you're gonna freak out if I tell you that, you know, dreams, aspirations, hopes, whatever that

[00:19:07] Bruce Chalmer: might be. As people don't want to take that risk, that has the effect of shutting down intimacy. Uh, not only sexual intimacy often, that's often a symptom of it, but intimacy more general, generally, and what I, my favorite metaphor about this is a plant, you know, a living organism, a plant needs roots. That's what stability is.

[00:19:29] Bruce Chalmer: So, it doesn't just blow over in the breezes, but it also needs intimacy. It needs, it needs to be involved with life. Intimacy is the energy for growth. Any living organism needs that. If you have a seed that gets paved over in a sidewalk and it's the germinated seed, it'll try to crack the sidewalk because it won't just sit there, it'll lead or die trying,

[00:19:51] Bruce Chalmer: and a couple is a living organism, and it's gonna want to have the energy for growth.

[00:19:56] Bruce Chalmer: That's where, you know, you think things you wouldn't have thought by yourself. If that gets shut down, somebody's gonna try and crack the sidewalk. Now usually that'll manifest. Uh, there's a lot of ways that can manifest. Some affairs are often, not only, but often a manifestation of that severe jealousy can be a manifestation of that, of lack of intimacy.

[00:20:15] Bruce Chalmer: You don't, you don't feel connected and so you're constantly afraid of what's happening in the relationship 'cause you're not tied in.

[00:20:22] Shanenn Bryant: Right, 

[00:20:23] Bruce Chalmer: lots of things can, you know, can manifest. 

[00:20:26] Shanenn Bryant: You hear a lot of times where people are like, we feel like roommates and we're just kind of 

[00:20:30] Shanenn Bryant: going with the flow and we've lost, you know, we've lost that love and feeling as they say.

[00:20:36] Shanenn Bryant: And that's because people are not taking that risk. They're, they're, they're putting that stability in front of the intimacy.

[00:20:43] Bruce Chalmer: Often, again, I don't wanna overstate it, you know, they're, everybody's got their own stories, but often that is the case. 

[00:20:50] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah. Um, so. In many situations where the, there's a person who is extremely jealous in the relationship. They're constantly seeking that reassurance from their partner and they're wanting to get it from their partner. Like if they, if. I was the jealous person and I'm upset because something happened and I'm feeling insecure, and I'm feeling jealous, and I'm kind of in a jealous meltdown.

[00:21:18] Shanenn Bryant: I'm wanting my partner to reach out their hand or come give me a hug or give me that reassurance. We know that that may not happen all the time, especially if this has been going on for quite some time, and the partner is. of over it or frustrated with it at that point. What do you recommend of how someone can make themselves gonna get that reassurance, I guess, for themselves going to their partner?

[00:21:48] Bruce Chalmer: What a great question. I wish I had a formula. You

[00:21:51] Bruce Chalmer: know, I mean, I, I think people have formulas, but I don't, I don't have a lot of faith in the formulas. You know, I, I don't know. It is, it's, of course, it's kind of a therapist cliche to say this, but I think it's true. You can't get that reassurance from someone else.

[00:22:04] Bruce Chalmer: Fundamentally, you know, it's really based on a very, very deep, acceptance of your own validity.

[00:22:12] Bruce Chalmer: You know, if you need reassurance of your own validity, you're never gonna find it. And if you don't need it, there's evidence of it all over the place. You know what I mean? If you don't need it, it's, it's readily available to you. And if you are in doubt about your own validity, there's no amount of proof that we'll be good enough. So that's a tough one. It's, it's really a lot of internal work.

[00:22:33] Bruce Chalmer: I don't wanna pathologize the idea that it's lovely to have your partner offer you some reassurance sometimes. You know, I certainly think that's a good, a lovely thing for partners to do.

[00:22:43] Bruce Chalmer: Don't take your partner for granted. Of course. You know, I, I always, that's another element of jealousy. You know, we may have talked about this when you were on our podcast. I don't remember. But the idea that I should worry. Not, not pathologically worried, but I should recognize that my wife is a, is a catch, you know, I, that she's valuable in the market. If I wanna be sort

[00:23:04] Shanenn Bryant: Mm-Hmm. 

[00:23:05] Bruce Chalmer: mercenary about it, she, she's, she's, she'd be a catch for some guy. I better be really nice to her. So she wants to stay with me, you know,

[00:23:13] Bruce Chalmer: and I hope, I trust, she feels similarly to me 'cause she's very nice to me. You know, that's the idea. You want to foster that. But that isn't about insecurity. That's about recognizing, hey, that's, that's about valuing your partner.

[00:23:24] Bruce Chalmer: So it's great to, you know, I certainly suggest to all partners of course be reassuring to your partner, but the problem you're asking about of course is no when you need it desperately if you

[00:23:35] Shanenn Bryant: When it's that habit of I've gotta get it from them and know, that's the only way I'll feel better this moment.

[00:23:43] Bruce Chalmer: yeah. And that, that very thing, you know, that that's the only way I'll feel better, of course, is the problem. You have to have ways of feeling better when they can't give that to you. I don't know what to call that. I mean, the word that pops in my mind is maturity, but I don't mean to be condescending or something.

[00:23:58] Bruce Chalmer: You know, it's as we get older and mature, you hope you can provide more of that for yourself?

[00:24:05] Shanenn Bryant: Right. Right. Well, and I think it is something that some people have to learn, right? Especially if they didn't have that, growing up I didn't have, you know, somebody who was that quiet support and knowing that I can feel safe without, you know, having to constantly seek reassurance. 

[00:24:29] Bruce Chalmer: yeah. And you know, speaking at, speaking as a father, um, and I know from remembering from your conversation with us that your father, you lost contact with your father pretty early right when you kid.

[00:24:41] Bruce Chalmer: And, um, I think that's a special thing that fathers can give daughters. Do you know what I mean? That sense that here's a male who is all about protecting, protecting you, loving you, and valuing you, not sexually, but you know what girls, and again, you can comment from your, your own experience, but this is what I hear from women. You know what girls can learn from their fathers. Is that, that same sense of, oh, I am viewed positively by this male, this really important male in my life. Then you get some self-esteem out of that when you go out and you're meeting men. And the absence of that can be really, I imagine, can be very painful.

[00:25:19] Shanenn Bryant: Well, yeah, I think it's too, it's. You know, show me how I should be treated in a way. 

[00:25:25] Shanenn Bryant: Right. know, show me what it feels like for someone to, for that male figure to, to love me and how to, how should they take care of me or, provide for me, that type of thing. 

[00:25:37] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:25:39] Shanenn Bryant: Um, okay. Well, switching gears from Death Spiral to you compare couples therapy to improv to comedy? 

[00:25:48] Bruce Chalmer: I do well to improv in particular, which is 

[00:25:52] Shanenn Bryant: okay, Okay.

[00:25:57] Bruce Chalmer: session.

[00:25:59] Shanenn Bryant: Could be, yeah. 

[00:26:00] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah.

[00:26:00] Bruce Chalmer: But no, the, it's the improv part of it because, uh, yeah. I, I find that's a really useful way of thinking about it. If you have, you, you've seen improv or have you ever done it yourself?

[00:26:11] Shanenn Bryant: No, 

[00:26:12] Bruce Chalmer: okay. Yeah. 

[00:26:13] Bruce Chalmer: I think I have once or twice. 

[00:26:15] Bruce Chalmer: The thing about improv is you have a prompt that sort of establishes the scene, and then there's only one rule that is applied in improv, as I understand it.

[00:26:25] Bruce Chalmer: The one rule is it's always yes and. Whatever somebody throws at you in improv, you never deny it or push it away or insist that it, you know, or, or say it's not. Yes, but it's always yes and you know, however ridiculous it is. That's what makes it funny. When it works, something ridiculous comes up and you go with that, and then you add something to it.

[00:26:49] Bruce Chalmer: Well, when couples show up for a couple's therapy, they're not in any sort of yes and mood. They're in a no dammit mood. Right, that whatever they're hearing from the other person is just not working for them. That's why they're not able to work it out themselves. And so they're in no way like that. But the therapist can be in.

[00:27:07] Bruce Chalmer: Yes. And again, I'm not talking about, you know, comedically speaking, but the therapist can hear what they're saying and accept that it's got to be valid on some level. Even if they're saying two opposite things, even if they're disagreeing on the facts. Almost always nobody I'm working with is crazy.

[00:27:26] Shanenn Bryant: Mm-Hmm 

[00:27:27] Bruce Chalmer: Almost always. They're not nuts. and almost always, I just have to assume they're not evil. You know, every once in a great, while I've been doing this for almost well over 30 years, coming internships and, you know, how many people have I met that I would say, oh my God, this person's a sociopath.

[00:27:42] Bruce Chalmer: Very, very, very few. I don't, I'm not, there people who see that all over the place. I don't, I see a lot of pissed off people, but I don't see people who are just fundamentally evil. So granting that is the assumption then there's gotta be something valid in what their experience is. And if the therapist's response is to go with that, you know, it's like, wow, let me hear more about that. It invites, eventually invites the couple to get into that. Yes. And stance as well. It's like they can actually start to hear each other. They don't have to agree, but they're saying, oh my God, no wonder what, you know, what I like to refer to it as, and I hope I'm not violating the, the language standard of your podcast here.

[00:28:21] Bruce Chalmer: I didn't ask you, but I call it the Oh shit moment.

[00:28:25] Bruce Chalmer: Um, the oh shit moment is when people, and I don't mean, oh shit, like when you hit the thumb with a hammer, you know, that's like, oh shit. No, it's not that It's the, oh shit. No wonder it's that moment. It's like, oh my No wonder you feel that way. I. Oh shit. I hadn't thought of it that way. No wonder I feel this way. I'm not changing how I feel either, but oh shit, I see where you're coming from now. What do we do? You know, I call it the oh shit moment rather than an aha moment. Aha moments are lovely. It's like, ah, we've got a solution. It's great. The oh shit moment is, is before the aha.

[00:29:00] Bruce Chalmer: It's like you may not be at Aha yet. Oh, shit is. It's not comfortable. It's like, oh boy. What do we do now? Because I see why you're feeling that way, and I see why I'm feeling this way, and I, those don't work together, do they? So what can we do? And often what will emerge then is stuff they'd never thought of. It's like, oh, oh, you know, I, I can work with you now. You know? Or sometimes what emerges from that is, oh geez, we have to split up, don't we? You know, the classic example of that one is, you know, somebody figures out they're gay in a heterosexual relationship. Oh shit. No wonder nobody's broken here, but this is why it's not working.

[00:29:42] Shanenn Bryant: But this is why it's not working. 

[00:29:43] Bruce Chalmer: yeah, there's lots of other, oh shit moments that are much happier, and result is sort of oh, we can, we can get through this. You know? Often what what'll happen sometimes is somebody thinks something was so important to them, and when they had that experience of an intimate connection, they realized it's not nearly as important as they thought.

[00:30:00] Bruce Chalmer: Actually, let's do it your way.

[00:30:01] Shanenn Bryant: And I would imagine, I mean, sometimes it might be hard to get people there to see the other side of that person, you know, like to actually hear that. 

[00:30:13] Bruce Chalmer: oh Yeah. initially that's usually the case. That's what they're doing with a therapist initially. It's very difficult. But that's, that's the connection with improv is, you know, the first session actually is very structured. I wrote about that in the book too. I give a sort of a roadmap to my first session, but after the first session, there's very little structure that I impose. I follow the meaning where it goes. That's where it's much more like improv at that point. You know, when I used to accept insurance, it was always funny when they would ask for a treatment plan. I would realize, well, the thing about couples therapy is it's not treatment and it's not planned. Other than that, no problem giving you a treatment plan You know, because it isn't treatment. It's not like you're treating a disorder,

[00:30:54] Bruce Chalmer: you know, it's not like treating diabetes or treating appendicitis. know, like doctors, you, I hope, you know, they have a decision tree and I'm glad they do, and they know what they're doing and they, they diagnose the problem and then they can work to fix it based on what the problem is. That is rarely how couples therapy goes.

[00:31:13] Shanenn Bryant: Right, right. 

[00:31:14] Bruce Chalmer: You know, John Gottman's work? Does that, does that ring Yeah.

[00:31:18] Bruce Chalmer: we may have touched on that actually in there when we were talking. I don't remember.

[00:31:21] Bruce Chalmer: But anyway, one of the things he noted in his research, he did this longitudinal research, you know, studied couples for decades in some cases. And he found that this, the list of problems, the list of problematic differences that they gave him as newlyweds, um, what was it? Two thirds of them were still there 20 years later. In other words, it is not that the problems go away, the couples that do well still have those problems, but they handle them gracefully.

[00:31:47] Shanenn Bryant: They do it differently.

[00:31:48] Bruce Chalmer: They do it differently. Yeah. And, and it's, it is about that sense. I don't know if Gottman uses the word, but I use the word gracefully. You know, they, they do it with grace. It's like, oh, isn't that something? This is one of those differences. We know we have it, you know, you're that way and I'm this way and it's fine and we've, we know how to get around this and it'll be a little annoying, but we'll be okay. That's

[00:32:06] Bruce Chalmer: another, A few months ago, my wife and I did a podcast where I announced. Not too grandiosely, of course, I announced that I have the, the magic key that unlocks all relationship problems. 

[00:32:18] Bruce Chalmer: The magic. Yeah, no problem. You know this, this will end all of our work because all I have do is say this phrase, everybody else can say, well, I guess we're done. Then, you know, the magic key that unlocks all relationship problems is the ability to be mildly annoyed. That's the one. The ability to be mildly annoyed. Yeah. 

[00:32:36] Bruce Chalmer: Because what that means is if, and you know, sounds rather silly to call it the magic key, but it is in a sense because if you're mildly annoyed, what that means is it's overridden by goodwill. I. It's like, yeah, it's, I'm sure I'm annoying to my wife on occasion.

[00:32:51] Bruce Chalmer: I know I'm annoying to my wife on occasion. She's not, almost never annoying to me, but I'm annoying to her and, but she's sweet about it, you know? She's like, yeah, she knows she's not denying it. She'll, you know, she'll complain about it if she needs to, but it just doesn't seem to rise to the level of hating my guts. You know, it's just, it's sort of funny at this point. I try to be nice about it and I try to, you know, I try to do what I can.

[00:33:13] Bruce Chalmer: Some of it's just gonna be there, you know, it's just who the two of us are and that's gonna be there.

[00:33:19] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. Yeah. You, they're not always gonna, you're not always gonna look at them with, you know, heart, heart shaped glasses all of the time. so, everybody's gonna have certain things that are gonna annoy you, especially when you're in longevity. Right. Or you're going for that longevity and being together. Yeah.

[00:33:39] Shanenn Bryant: Yeah. I mean, my husband and I both, we joke about it all the time. I mean, he is. Selfish and I'm clumsy. And we know that. that's okay.

[00:33:47] Bruce Chalmer: There you go. those are perhaps harsh terms, I dunno, but like you, you're laughing about it 'cause you found some, you know, you found some truth in it, but you know, it's another way of, of, um, saying the same thing. Those terms, you know? Yes. He's selfish in your clumsy whatever. They obviously aren't the whole story. They're a funny little part of the story.

[00:34:08] Shanenn Bryant: Yes 

[00:34:09] Bruce Chalmer: And, and there's some truth in it, but it's not the whole truth. It's just some truth

[00:34:12] Bruce Chalmer: in Yeah, Because there are times when you're very graceful and times when he's really generous. right.

[00:34:17] Shanenn Bryant: That's 

[00:34:18] Bruce Chalmer: yes. 

[00:34:18] Bruce Chalmer: Yeah.

[00:34:20] Shanenn Bryant: Uh, well, Bruce Chalmer, thank you so much for being on Top Self. We appreciate it. Where can people find you?

[00:34:26] Bruce Chalmer: They can find, um, my, uh, website brucechalmer.com and they can also find our podcast website. It's couples therapy in seven words. And the podcast website is CT in seven. That's the number seven CTin7.com. That's where they can find our podcast that I do with my wife, Judy Alexander. And um. That's either of those places they'll find out.

[00:34:48] Bruce Chalmer: I also I do therapy by telehealth, and if you're in jurisdictions where I'm licensed, which currently is Vermont. In Florida, I'm, I do have some openings. 

[00:34:58] Shanenn Bryant: All right. Yeah, so for those of you in Vermont or Florida, uh, Bruce can you know, he can help you get your partner into therapy and help you once you get there. Right.

[00:35:10] Bruce Chalmer: Uh, indeed, I certainly, I do offer that. Well, thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it.

[00:35:15] Shanenn Bryant: Thank you, Bruce.

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